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subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 7:35:54 AM

cato12

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Is it really true that submerged subs share info in command? That would be impossible in real life so why does it happen in command and what implications does it have on gameplay?

Im sitting on the fence whether to buy or now and have been going through old threads looking for as much info as possible.

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 8:07:13 AM

Dimitris

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Ask any old Harpoon player about the most annoying experiences of playing that game, and losing direct control of his subs while in "full comms realism" mode regularly tops the list.

We (strive to) learn from the mistakes of those before us.

BTW, communication networks dedicated to comms with submarines do exist in RL.

If you need reasons to convince yourself that Command is "worth it", look here:
http://www.warfaresims.com/?page_id=1917
And here:
http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=1873
And here:
http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=1862

And talk with anyone here.

Thanks.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 2/19/2014 9:24:31 AM >

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 1:04:38 PM

Blu3wolf

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From: Western Australia
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Cato, I have to recommend purchasing Command. the DB alone is worth a good portion of the price of admission, and its only getting bigger and better...

Sunburn, I have to admit I would love a 'full comms realism' mode, sometime down the track...
maybe after multiplayer is added in the main game : )

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 1:07:13 PM

incredibletwo

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And the ability to disrupt/jam comms in some form, when comms are "activated" down the track...

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 1:44:48 PM

guanotwozero

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I'm another one who was sceptical at first, but decided to buy and now very glad I did.

At present the game is fairly new and not without bugs and foibles, but it is still tremendously sophisticated and enjoyable to play. The dev team are very active on this forum, listing to bug reports, requests for changes and even ideas for future enhancements. They regularly release new builds with fixes and more features, and the database is continually being expanded. They give confidence that the game is here for the long run, and likely to be enhanced considerably.

If you feel the sub comms & control methods could be improved, then by all means post suggestions how that could be done. As realism is the intended goal, a good suggestion for improving that will likely be taken seriously. Of course, it has to compete with all the other requests for improvements and dev man-hours are limited, so patience is needed too.

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Buy it! You won't regret it!

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 3:11:05 PM

Werewolf13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

BTW, communication networks dedicated to comms with submarines do exist in RL.

Very true: to communicate with submerged subs the comms are VLF - that's very low frequency. In addition subs can communicate with each other over a limited range via sonar and surface ships can too but that is only used when its safe and there aren't any enemy around. We never used sonar comms when soviet subs were in the area.,

But - and this is a big but!

Having served on subs during my 10 year stay in the USN I can tell you that when submerged and using VLF which isn't used all that often except to communicate with the boomers - we didn't have a VLF antenna on the SSN I served on (USS Sandlance - SSN 660) it more often than not took well over 30 minutes to copy even a short message.

That said: Being able to command a sub - even a submerged one in a sim like CMNAO is critical - unless the AI can do a credible job. Otherwise consider commanding a submerged as the player being the sub's Captain.

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 9:25:10 PM

cato12

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Thanks for the comments guys. This game is defo on my wanted list and is moving closer to the top the more I read up on it.

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 9:39:09 PM

renders

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this is a HUGE project and it's worth the money. if you are interested, here there is a great database and game, thanks to the devs readyiness you can ask features and improvements. For me, at a certain point, the game became less important than the data contained in it. i simply loose myself in testing units, reproducing my navy's fleet and bases, looking at mounts, sensors, weapons.
ah, and if you need a certain unit/thing you have researched on, they will put in for you! if you are interested in the genre, this is the best thing ever.
if you are low on money, choose the digital release, it's cheaper and you can always print the manual on paper. even if i must say, my booklet with my name on and color printed manual it's really satisfying.

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/19/2014 9:46:34 PM

Primarchx

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Cato - you can set subs to be a neutral (but allied) force that you never see but works with you via the AI, if you want to do so in a scenario you create (or modify).

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/20/2014 1:11:39 AM

Werewolf13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Cato - you can set subs to be a neutral (but allied) force that you never see but works with you via the AI, if you want to do so in a scenario you create (or modify).

Now that IS interesting.

I don't own CMNAO - yet - but could you expand on that, please. I can imagine a number of possible scenarios where being able to do what you describe would be extremely useful.

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/20/2014 11:30:49 AM

thewood1

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Whenever I want to have friendly FOW, I create separate sides for units like subs or even other task forces. Its not a perfect representation, but I find it a good analog for comms issues.

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/20/2014 12:30:52 PM

Primarchx

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One way to effectively portray subs is to make them a non-playable (AI) side that is Neutral (so they don't share sensor info) to the player's side and Hostile to the enemy's. Place them on the map, give them a mission and let them go.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326

quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Cato - you can set subs to be a neutral (but allied) force that you never see but works with you via the AI, if you want to do so in a scenario you create (or modify).

Now that IS interesting.

I don't own CMNAO - yet - but could you expand on that, please. I can imagine a number of possible scenarios where being able to do what you describe would be extremely useful.

< Message edited by Primarchx -- 2/20/2014 1:33:58 PM >

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RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/20/2014 3:44:05 PM

guanotwozero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
One way to effectively portray subs is to make them a non-playable (AI) side that is Neutral (so they don't share sensor info) to the player's side and Hostile to the enemy's. Place them on the map, give them a mission and let them go.

Sure, it could be useful for subs to be given completely autonomous missions, but alternatively the player may want to have regular command and information updates.

The ROE/task could be set to go to comms depth at predefined intervals, or when certain conditions are met, e.g. encountering enemies at a distance that's safe for comms. At such times new instructions could be given, or the mission parameters changed. It may be useful to use subs for surveillance-only missions instead of attack, so the subs will need to regularly communicate their contacts.

As realism vs. playability is an issue, I'd suggest any such realism setting would be optional.

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Post #: 13

RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/20/2014 11:46:33 PM

Primarchx

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Yes, and that method is not currently supported. I provided one way (not perfect) to segregate subs and surface while keeping them both oriented against the same enemy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
One way to effectively portray subs is to make them a non-playable (AI) side that is Neutral (so they don't share sensor info) to the player's side and Hostile to the enemy's. Place them on the map, give them a mission and let them go.

Sure, it could be useful for subs to be given completely autonomous missions, but alternatively the player may want to have regular command and information updates.

The ROE/task could be set to go to comms depth at predefined intervals, or when certain conditions are met, e.g. encountering enemies at a distance that's safe for comms. At such times new instructions could be given, or the mission parameters changed. It may be useful to use subs for surveillance-only missions instead of attack, so the subs will need to regularly communicate their contacts.

As realism vs. playability is an issue, I'd suggest any such realism setting would be optional.

(in reply to guanotwozero)

Post #: 14

RE: subs share info while submerged? - 2/21/2014 8:51:46 AM

guanotwozero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
Yes, and that method is not currently supported. I provided one way (not perfect) to segregate subs and surface while keeping them both oriented against the same enemy.

Sure, I'm just suggesting a way that the current mission approach could be extended to increase realism, while still retaining reasonable playability. I never played Harpoon so I don't know quite why its sub realism was so unpopular [any details anyone?], but I'm encouraged that the team is minded to look at this issue down the line.

(in reply to Primarchx)

Post #: 15