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Italian Production - 3/22/2014 10:42:45 AM

warspite1

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IS there something wrong with Italian production? How are the Italians supposed to build an artillery or aircraft? I have had to disband half my Italian units just to get sufficient build points to bring existing units up to full strength?

Don't get me wrong, I think the Entente are too powerful, but if fixing it is to make the Italians so weak then you might as well get rid of their ability to build aircraft or artillery...or just about anything.

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Post #: 1

RE: Italian Production - 3/23/2014 8:46:50 PM

kirk23

Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

IS there something wrong with Italian production? How are the Italians supposed to build an artillery or aircraft? I have had to disband half my Italian units just to get sufficient build points to bring existing units up to full strength?

Don't get me wrong, I think the Entente are too powerful, but if fixing it is to make the Italians so weak then you might as well get rid of their ability to build aircraft or artillery...or just about anything.

I have increased Italian PPs for the 1.50 patch,fingers crossed this and some other changes might even be included in a hot fix,after the release of the I Pad version!

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Post #: 2

RE: Italian Production - 3/27/2014 6:59:37 PM

operating

Posts: 3158
Joined: 1/19/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

IS there something wrong with Italian production? How are the Italians supposed to build an artillery or aircraft? I have had to disband half my Italian units just to get sufficient build points to bring existing units up to full strength?

Don't get me wrong, I think the Entente are too powerful, but if fixing it is to make the Italians so weak then you might as well get rid of their ability to build aircraft or artillery...or just about anything.

Disbanded 3 Italian island garrisons (15pp), sold labs for artillery, armor, and navy (est. 45pp), disbanded sub (11pp), ended up with over +70 pp to spend, plus an additional 15 or more PP on next turn. Did not seem like a real bad deal for a financially broke nation just entering the war. I'll have to do research, to check up on the historical correctness.

<edit>
Did find this site to support a weak Italian economy beginning of WW 1. http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww1/cou/it/w1ci-home.html

< Message edited by operating -- 3/27/2014 8:13:13 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 3

RE: Italian Production - 3/27/2014 7:53:02 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

IS there something wrong with Italian production? How are the Italians supposed to build an artillery or aircraft? I have had to disband half my Italian units just to get sufficient build points to bring existing units up to full strength?

Don't get me wrong, I think the Entente are too powerful, but if fixing it is to make the Italians so weak then you might as well get rid of their ability to build aircraft or artillery...or just about anything.

Disbanded 3 Italian island garrisons (15pp), sold labs for artillery, armor, and navy (est. 45pp), disbanded sub (11pp), ended up with over +70 pp to spend, plus an additional 15 or more PP on next turn. Did not seem like a real bad deal for a financially broke nation just entering the war. I'll have to do research, to check up on the historical correctness.

<edit>
Did find this site to support a weak Italian economy beginning of WW 1. http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww1/cou/it/w1ci-home.html

warspite1

Operating, that Italy had a weak economy is not a surprise!

I just think it detracts from the game when playing with that country is no fun.... In the current game, having disbanded a load of units, and bought nothing, I still can't keep my units up to strength...

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to operating)

Post #: 4

RE: Italian Production - 3/27/2014 8:38:03 PM

suprass81

Posts: 234
Joined: 4/23/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

IS there something wrong with Italian production? How are the Italians supposed to build an artillery or aircraft? I have had to disband half my Italian units just to get sufficient build points to bring existing units up to full strength?

Don't get me wrong, I think the Entente are too powerful, but if fixing it is to make the Italians so weak then you might as well get rid of their ability to build aircraft or artillery...or just about anything.

Disbanded 3 Italian island garrisons (15pp), sold labs for artillery, armor, and navy (est. 45pp), disbanded sub (11pp), ended up with over +70 pp to spend, plus an additional 15 or more PP on next turn. Did not seem like a real bad deal for a financially broke nation just entering the war. I'll have to do research, to check up on the historical correctness.

<edit>
Did find this site to support a weak Italian economy beginning of WW 1. http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww1/cou/it/w1ci-home.html

warspite1

Operating, that Italy had a weak economy is not a surprise!

I just think it detracts from the game when playing with that country is no fun.... In the current game, having disbanded a load of units, and bought nothing, I still can't keep my units up to strength...

In my oppinion Operating is right... but I can understand your point of view too :D.
If you sell some "things" at the start you are able to maintein an army. You have to choose- tech or number.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 5

RE: Italian Production - 3/27/2014 9:10:45 PM

operating

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Warspite,

4 infantry, backed by 4 garrisons and 2 SGs for starters is a pretty good size army (include balloon) for Italy, after disbands. I'm willing to bet that AH is getting between 15 to 25 PP when Italy enters, minus a number of it's labs, especially if Serbia is still in the game. Germany's economy might even be worse, but better quality. France should be holding it's own with England's support and maybe a Belgian unit. I have not seen yet where Russia has gone much below 30PP, even after losing several cities for virtually no CP pp gain. Yes! If Italy get's a boost in PP the game will/could be over real quick. Not to mention the bombard capability of a BB and cruiser or that Portugal, Romania entrees are not that far off. So I'm a little skeptical on an increase of PP. Keep in mind, that Turkey has taken a big hit, both in pp and infantry, would it be fair to say that if Italy get's a boost, that Turkey should also get increases too?

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RE: Italian Production - 3/29/2014 11:27:38 AM

kirk23

Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
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Hey guys, it all comes down to how different players play the game, and what strategy they use,I find trying to balance the game is the hardest part off it,I can tell you its not easy trying to keep everyone happy,but honestly I do try,I care deeply for the game,and I want to see it go from strength to strength!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 3/29/2014 12:29:31 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Italian Production - 3/29/2014 4:18:06 PM

operating

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quote:

Re: Italy, Serbia, and economic balance

Postby Yote � 27 Mar 2014 18:58

A theory about this popped into my head. Not sure if it's correct (hence a theory and not an explanation), but developers don't tend to add things like these without a thought behind them, so I wonder whether this might be it...

Early in the war, Austria-Hungary thought they would be able to crush Serbia easily, but due to high serbian morale, its army's experience from the previous Balkan wars and thus also its expert use of terrain etc, the Habsburg army was thrown back. A smaller army belonging to an economically weaker nation managed despite it all to defeat a larger one for quite awhile, and also made a few successful rallies when they were pushed back by its enemy's superior numbers.

When it came to Italy, the country suffered from widespread corruption at all levels at the time and the management of the army was very poor, as a result. The country wasn't unique in this of course, since Austria-Hungary and Russia were also well known for this, but its level of mismanagement of the army has been noted as one of its greatest weaknesses in its war effort. Just like early russian efforts, the soldiers were thrown against the enemy with very little sense behind it, before they managed to get some decent officers in charge.

The most logical way of simulating this in the game would be giving different troops different stats, like for example making the serbian units overall stronger and perhaps having the italian units start with a lowerer level of quality. This game, however, doesn't use different stats for different nationalities. The german army start off with being lvl 2 at the onset of the game, but its stats there is the same as what the other armies have when they successfully research lvl 2. Units are the same, unless research says different.

So, I'm simply guessing that to create these historically inspired conditions in the game, the developers have chosen to do this through the economical system.
Italy has a crap economy from the start and the player has to rationalise in order to get things going somewhat; Serbia has quite the economy to build units from at the start in order to show how they could put up a good defence, but after awhile as Belgrade is taken (or at least bombed the **** out of) and other industrial centres suffer, the country weakens before the onslaught of the larger enemy.

Borrowed the above quote from the Slitherine CTGW forum, Which I thought made a lot of sense.

< Message edited by operating -- 4/1/2014 6:49:22 PM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Italian Production - 3/30/2014 7:40:01 AM

Orm

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Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
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I seriously dislike that the tactic to disband units from the start is needed for many nations. I find it disturbing that Serbia and Italy has a economy of almost equal size.

Skopje has a production of 8 while the north Italian cities all have a production of 1. And, as I understand it, these cities where the industrial centre of Italy. Skopje is even has twice the production of Ruhr.

While it takes a real effort to conquer Serbia it is a walkover in comparison to conquer Italy.

During WWI Italy did use poor tactics but they did replace their losses. They launched numerous offensives. And after their front collapsed they were able to create a second front. I think that the rumour of Italy's poor performance in WWI was created because they attacked multiple times in difficult terrain against entrenched defenders for little to no gain. What if they had stayed on the defence? No way that Serbia would have been able to launch offensives the way that Italy did. Note that AH did no offence against Serbia after Italy joined the war until Bulgaria entered the war. This was because all the AH reserves were needed on the Italian front and not because of the Serbian defence.

Italy had more than 5 million men in arms during WWI and Serbia had less than 1 million.

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RE: Italian Production - 3/30/2014 10:40:10 PM

operating

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Re: Italy, Serbia, and economic balance

Postby operating � 30 Mar 2014 17:19

quote:

zokk wrote:
The site is interesting, but it lacks hard numbers or direct comparison to other nations. Everything is relative. Italy did have a weak economy... compared to the other great powers: Germany, France, Britain, Russia, Austria-Hungary, and the USA. Compared to the non-great powers like Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Belgium, the Ottoman Empire, and Portugal, Italy's economy was quite large.

The idea that Serbia should have more PP than Italy in the game is absurd.

Here's a link to a detailed essay on the economics of WWI. Pages 23 & 25 are of particular interest since they have the population and GDP figures for all of the combatants.
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/academic/harrison/papers/ww1toronto2.pdf

Yote wrote;

quote:

Serbia has quite the economy to build units from at the start in order to show how they could put up a good defence, but after awhile as Belgrade is taken (or at least bombed the **** out of) and other industrial centres suffer, the country weakens before the onslaught of the larger enemy.

For the sake of playability: I liked Yote's rationality in the above quote. We should all appreciate the evolution of this game, for at least you have a say in it. More than likely Italy will get a boost of some sort in the next patch, but don't forget: in this 1914 scenario Italy has naval fleets that Serbia does not have, Italy has a balloon that Serbia does not have, Italy has 4 infantry-7 garrisons-3 SGs to Serbia's 2 Infantry-5>6 garrisons -1 cav - 3 SGs-1 gun. Italy has 5 tech categories, Serbia 2 and they have to fight for a long time before Italy enters the war and perhaps saving Italy from being invaded earlier than their deployment date. What I am trying to say is: That Italy has a far superior military complex, compared to Serbia's. Yes, sure you can have a cut in Serbia's PP, offset with a greater PP for Italy, however, you can bet that Serbia will be knocked out of the game a lot quicker, resulting in NM loss to Entente, just to give Italy more points. It must be painful to Kirk and the gang, on how to keep this game balanced, yet keep the World War One feel.

< Message edited by operating -- 4/1/2014 6:37:32 PM >

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Post #: 10