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Support unit query - 6/7/2014 8:12:10 AM

cato12

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Joined: 7/19/2011
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is there any advantage to having support units attached to hqs higher that corps? From my understanding of it, the higher up support units are the more leader checks have to happen for them to join battles so surely it would make sense to have all combat support units at corps level?

ps

im also failing to understand why the automated support isn't working the way I intend.

Ive set all hqs to 0 support level. I then set 7 corps to 5. based on those setting I would've though that these 7 corps should have the vast majority of the SU's? ive ran several turns as a test (kiev scenario) but what Im seing is that several of the corps arent getting any SU's and the rest are all ending back up at OKH and AGS level.

what am I doing wrong?

< Message edited by cato12 -- 6/7/2014 10:44:05 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Support unit query - 6/7/2014 10:26:42 AM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
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Not native English, so sorry if not clear in my explanations.

The best way to have support active is to attach them directly to the units. Personnaly I do it with sapper and stug for Pzd/Mot. As russian, the most effective are sapper attached to rifle corps.

I usually attach flak units to corps. I never attach support at a higher level than corps for germans or armies for russians. From my experience, It seems that the initiative level of the commander has an impact on the efficiency of supports.

I never used the support level

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 2

RE: Support unit query - 6/7/2014 10:34:22 AM

cato12

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Joined: 7/19/2011
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ive also tried setting all hqs to level 3 and 6 or 7 specific corps to level 5 and am seing the same the results. so is the auto system broken then?

I really don't want to have to micromanage SU's so any help with this would be really appreciated.

ps

ok ive spent a good few hours and have tried any number of combinations + have searched the forums and re-read the related parts of the manual and the result is always the same with a large amount of SU's ending up back at OKH never to return. it seems once they are back at OKH there is no automated way of getting them back.

im starting to feel the sting with this game after shelling out �60, if id known such an important feature (for me anywhere) was broken I prob wouldn't have invested.

really hoping someone can point out something obvious im maybe missing or even post what support level set up they use I would be extremely grateful.

cheers

< Message edited by cato12 -- 6/7/2014 7:32:22 PM >

(in reply to STEF78)

Post #: 3

RE: Support unit query - 6/7/2014 6:34:44 PM

morvael

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From: Poland
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I found the auto system to never work as I would like it to work. In essence it was unable to guess my wishes :-) I know it's a pain to redistribute SUs the first time (wrist pain kicks in after 2-3 hours), but later it's a breeze. Remember to lock the HQs first, so the AI won't undo your work.

Most SUs (sapper, armored, aa, at, artillery) should go to those HQs which have combat units attached (for Axis side this means corps level). I keep a few AA and construction units on the higher levels. AA protects rear and the HQ itself, construction units rebuild rail in long radius, but mostly you need them not to lose leaders (more elements in the HQ - lower chance of leader death from air attack).

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 4

RE: Support unit query - 6/7/2014 6:58:10 PM

cato12

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thanks for the reply morvael but I really don't wanna go down the 2-3 hour mouse click routine, my day job has more than enough of that

il put the game on hold until I get a response from someone who uses the auto system with some degree of success, maybe even a dev could shed some light on this. im not looing for the AI to pull any masterstrokes, just simply to carry out basic instructions like sending x amount of units to certain areas.

its starting look like its seriously bugged which is disappointing.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 5

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 11:44:49 AM

carlkay58

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Joined: 7/25/2010
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I tend to use the auto system pretty much. I will manually do an important corps or army upon occasion, but overall I let the AI do it. Be aware that the auto system takes time to work. It can take as much as three or four turns for it to sort through and match your settings. As far as I can tell, it will take a turn to move an SU up or down the chain one level. So if you have SUs assigned to one corps that should move to another corps in a different army group, it will be:

1) move from corps to army
2) army to army group
3) army group to OKH
4) OKH down to target army group
5) army group to target army
6) army to target corps

Thus six turns will go by before the SU reaches the target.

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 6

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 11:55:54 AM

cato12

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Joined: 7/19/2011
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thanks for the reply carlkey. ive been using the kiev scenario (axis) as a test base and have ran between 5-10 turns to see what happens but the results are always the same.

any chance you could post what supply level setup you have from top to bottom? a major issue seems to be the amount of units that end up back at OKH, once they are there they never come back down the line.

im not expecting the system to be perfect but if I could get it working as you describe id be happy enough.

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 7

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 2:08:13 PM

swkuh

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This player always uses manual assignment to get reasonable distribution of support units. Just don't see auto assignment working and don't understand the manual or the various descriptions of the process in this thread.

Once done & locked, its quite satisfactory. Support units are essential for German forces. Get SUs to corps and sometimes to division level if possible.

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 8

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 2:13:17 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cato12

thanks for the reply carlkey. ive been using the kiev scenario (axis) as a test base and have ran between 5-10 turns to see what happens but the results are always the same.

any chance you could post what supply level setup you have from top to bottom? a major issue seems to be the amount of units that end up back at OKH, once they are there they never come back down the line.

im not expecting the system to be perfect but if I could get it working as you describe id be happy enough.

I've never had any problem using the auto system. As Carlkay58 says, it takes a while to sort out, but it works well. I do find that if you try to do it all at once, the algorithm can get confused so I first open up OKH and AG levels and set all others to zero. After a few turns to allow everything to migrate upward I set the levels on korps, and zero everything else. Then I lock everything down and finetune manually. Note that most engineering units are outside the auto system and have to be moved manually after the lockdown. Also note that I lock and manually control key frontline korps from the gitgo.

Now as an aside, here is an important part of the way the system works:
1. If you set OKH to nine and everything else to zero, things will migrate upward to OKH until it has nine SU of each type and then the migration stops
2. If you then set any lower unit to a nonzero value and leave OKH set to nine, NOTHING MOVES since OKH has no excess to move downward

< Message edited by pompack -- 6/8/2014 3:18:15 PM >

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 9

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 5:57:14 PM

cato12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: cato12

thanks for the reply carlkey. ive been using the kiev scenario (axis) as a test base and have ran between 5-10 turns to see what happens but the results are always the same.

any chance you could post what supply level setup you have from top to bottom? a major issue seems to be the amount of units that end up back at OKH, once they are there they never come back down the line.

im not expecting the system to be perfect but if I could get it working as you describe id be happy enough.

I've never had any problem using the auto system. As Carlkay58 says, it takes a while to sort out, but it works well. I do find that if you try to do it all at once, the algorithm can get confused so I first open up OKH and AG levels and set all others to zero. After a few turns to allow everything to migrate upward I set the levels on korps, and zero everything else. Then I lock everything down and finetune manually. Note that most engineering units are outside the auto system and have to be moved manually after the lockdown. Also note that I lock and manually control key frontline korps from the gitgo.

Now as an aside, here is an important part of the way the system works:
1. If you set OKH to nine and everything else to zero, things will migrate upward to OKH until it has nine SU of each type and then the migration stops
2. If you then set any lower unit to a nonzero value and leave OKH set to nine, NOTHING MOVES since OKH has no excess to move downward

I must be playing a different game from you

you've pretty much described what I tried for several hours yesterday. after reading you post I got re-enthused and thought I would try it again on the off chance it might just work.

heres what I done. im using the road Moscow scenario this time.

turn 1 - OKH,AGN AGC level 9, everything else 0

turn 3 - OKH = 33 su's. AGN = 47 AGC = 116. set all levels to zero. set all 4 corps of panzer group 3 to 5.

turn 4 - OKH = 194. nothing sent down the line

turn 5 - no change

turn 6 - no change

turn 7 - changed levels for corps to 3 to see what would happen.

turn 8 - OKH - 202. nothing fed down.

?????

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 10

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 8:37:32 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
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From: University Park, Texas
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Interesting

Ran the test and you are right: something has definitely changed since the last time I played the Germans. SU will flow down ONLY one level. So in this test only Korps attached directly to OKH got SU

So, I recommend the method I have been using as the Soviets; it should work just as well for the Germans

1. Set all active Korps to 3, OKH to 9 and everyone else to 0
2. On Turn 3 lock all Korps and manually send SU to the Korps

Note that if you DRAW Su into a Korps it costs one AP, but if you SEND an SU FROM OKH to a destination Korps it is free. Note also that OKH must be railed closer to the target Korps in some cases in order for the Korps to appear in the assignment window

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 11

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 8:59:29 PM

cato12

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tried that with identical results, all the SU's get drawn to OKW and get stuck there. It sounds like you are suggesting I go down the manual route which is exactly what im trying to avoid.

id be ok with manually assigning the odd SU here n there but when I eventually dive into the GC dealing massive amounts of units I really don't want to be micromanaging to much at that level.

hopefully carlkay above or someone else can post they're exact support level setup so I cant try it. im really hoping I can get this thing working.

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 12

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 9:48:17 PM

pompack

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From: University Park, Texas
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Well, from what I saw you could still make the auto work

1. set Armee to 9, Korps to 3, everything else to zero
sucks all excess up to Armee and all higher down to Armee
2. set Armee to 0
flows down to Korps until it runs out
3. set Heersgruppe to 9
sucks unused up to AG level
4. find Korps with insufficient, set their Armee to 9, set Heersgurppe to 0
flows down to Armee with needy Korps
5. Set Armee to 0
flows down to needy Korps
6. repeat for higher HQ if some Korps still needy

Now with all that said, I would prefer to set manually as I do for the Russians. For the Russians, if I want to waste AP it takes about 10-15 minutes (total, assuming I have already determined what I want in each HQ) to pull from STAVKA for each Army; if I want to save AP it takes about 30-45 minutes to rail STAVKA around and flow the SU downward. In fact, I find that figuring out what I want in each HQ takes longer than actually moving the SU there.

Now, as I said above, I have not played the Germans in a while. But there are some significant differences. For the Russians, I like to put exactly the same SU distribution into every Army HQ; the Soviets have a lot of artillery and can easily make whatever else I want to use. The Germans, as I remember, are short of almost everything; you want to put your breakthrough artillery where you are fighting forts, your field artillery primarily with your lead infantry with a little bit everywhere else, motorized support with mobile HQ, etc. etc. Back when I could flow down automatically, I used that as a starting point only then moved them one at a time until it felt good

. However you move your SU, you will end up doing a LOT of manual adjustment first to get it the way you want it and then to change it as the strategic situation changes. Just my two cents

< Message edited by pompack -- 6/8/2014 10:57:48 PM >

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 13

RE: Support unit query - 6/8/2014 10:00:17 PM

carlkay58

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Personally I have it work best if you just leave everyone at the default 3 level. That gives the HQ a maximum of 3 of each SU TOE possible. It does not mean that you will get that many. I do know that there have been problems with people going 'weird' with the auto system. Remember that if you have only one HQ (OKH in this case) set to above 0, you will have problems when the HQ hits its max - there have been previous versions of the game (way back in version 1 & 2) where the excess SUs were actually dropped from the OB. So I leave the majority of the HQs set at 3. I only change the level of the Corps HQs (and usually just when I play the Soviets where I zero the Corps HQs to send the SUs to the rear and safety). I use manual settings for specific tasks - such as capturing Leningrad or being the penetration corps for a large offensive.

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 14

RE: Support unit query - 6/9/2014 3:31:51 PM

charlie0311

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cato,

My two cents worth would be to just play the game with the starting set-up. Set axis logistics at 120 and have some fun kicking russkie butt.

Maybe later, then, you could get into the "depth" stuff. Personally, I like to micromanage, but it burns a huge amount of time.

Also, I think that if the various HQ don't move, or move very little, then the SU flow works better. But!!, as German you have to move your HQ forward in summer 41. Not until winter/spring 41-42 when the front settles down enough such that you don't move the HQ much.

Charlie

ps. I'm no expert. Morvael, he's the guy.

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 15

RE: Support unit query - 6/9/2014 9:23:10 PM

BJP III

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If anyone cares, I think I figured out how this works.

If you set everyone to 0 and OKH to 9, by turn 4, all SUs (other than construction and pioneers) will be in OKH. They seem to move up 1 level per turn.

To get SUs back down, you need to open up each link in the chain. For example, to load out II Korps at Level 3, you need to set AGN and 16th Army to 3 each as well. Interestingly, neither of them will get any SUs on the initial turn -- they will all go to II Korps. If you leave AGN and 16th Army at level 3, 16th Army will load out the following turn, and then AGN the turn after that.

If you leave AGN and 16th Army at 0, nothing will flow down to II Korps. If you set them at 1, then the SU level at II Korps will increase by 1 per turn (until you get to 3).

All in all though, it seems like a long time to wait for your desired load-outs. I use the "auto" function to reduce the allotment to some of the overloaded corps (including most of the motorized corps -- SUs work much better in deliberate attacks, and you generally down want your panzers and motorized divisions wasting MPs on deliberate attacks), and just manually increase the guys who need to be loaded out.

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 16

RE: Support unit query - 6/10/2014 4:22:19 PM

cato12

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I definitely care

il give this a try but to be honest if this is gonna take 5+ as it sounds it might its a bit pointless as the 1st turns are the most important.

to all the guys who use the manual method, lets say I decide to overload a couple of corps with SU's. then in a few turns I decide I want to return these SU's and reallocate somewhere else.

what the easiest way of doing this? the auto system would've been perfect for this but as this thread has shown its pretty much useless.

(in reply to BJP III)

Post #: 17

RE: Support unit query - 6/10/2014 5:23:33 PM

charlie0311

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Hi Cato,

Go to CR, commanders report. Click on nationality such that you get German only and you should be starting at "units" tab at the top.

Now at the bottom select none for unit type, you should now have a clear screen.

Now click on the unit type you want to move, "eng" that's pioneers (most important IMO). Presto there are all your Pioneers. Click on unit location (xx,yy). A screen appears with the selected unit, click on HQ to the right, I think it may be highlighted in yellow. A list of available "destinations" appears with AP costs. The destinations will all be HQ of varying types. There is some, unknown to me, range limitation. So click on the HQ you want and the unit has moved.

Don't remember for sure which screen appears next but you then want to either go back to the commanders report and move another unit or go to the HQ you moved the unit to and lock that HQ otherwise the computer will send it right back the next turn (a sure way to set my hair on fire).

Once you get used to it, then it's not so bad.

BTW, while you're playing with the CR check out some of the way cool stuff in weapons tab. I like the really big artillery.

charlie

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 18

RE: Support unit query - 6/10/2014 5:59:03 PM

cato12

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Charlie,

il give that a go in my current kiev campaign. the CR is an extremely valuable tool for sure, once you know how to use it that is.

thanks for all the responses by the way. ive only playing playing for a couple of weeks so im sure il have more questions further down the line.

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Post #: 19

RE: Support unit query - 6/10/2014 6:56:44 PM

SigUp

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As far as I know there are no range limitations for the reassignment of SU. It rather is a limitation caused by the space available to display all the possibilities.

(in reply to cato12)

Post #: 20