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USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/21/2014 6:13:19 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I never got into the 'nuts and bolts' of the American war effort. Now, I'm in July '44 and see a steady output of ships at Portland, Oregon. I'm looking for a book that would explain some of the American war machine ramping up decisions and not just a book on what ship and other items of war were produced where and when. Why did Portland produce so many CVEs and TKs for example and not a place like Seattle/Tacoma??

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/21/2014 6:31:44 PM   
AW1Steve


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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Henry Kaiser set up his production there to not interfere with other yards. They were close enough to utilize each others expertise , but separate enough to not drain on labor markets . Portland could already handle merchant ships , and CVE's were generally built on either merchant hulls or tanker hulls. Seattle represents the Pudget Sound Naval ship yard at Bremerton , which already built warships. Tacoma built small craft and some merchants. In general, ship building areas tried not to step on each others toes , and build up existing shipyards. Each built to it's strengths.

In other places , new ship yards were created to build Liberty and Victory ships , which were designed to be built in simple yards, with mostly unskilled labor. Submarines on the other hand , required very skilled labor and were MOSTLY built in pre-war yards specializing in them (yes...I know about the yard that launched them in Wisconsin... but that's an exception , not the rule).


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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/21/2014 7:19:44 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Henry Kaiser set up his production there to not interfere with other yards. They were close enough to utilize each others expertise , but separate enough to not drain on labor markets . Portland could already handle merchant ships , and CVE's were generally built on either merchant hulls or tanker hulls. Seattle represents the Pudget Sound Naval ship yard at Bremerton , which already built warships. Tacoma built small craft and some merchants. In general, ship building areas tried not to step on each others toes , and build up existing shipyards. Each built to it's strengths.

In other places , new ship yards were created to build Liberty and Victory ships , which were designed to be built in simple yards, with mostly unskilled labor. Submarines on the other hand , required very skilled labor and were MOSTLY built in pre-war yards specializing in them (yes...I know about the yard that launched them in Wisconsin... but that's an exception , not the rule).



To these reasons I would add that the Colombia River complex has a huge amount of great shipbuilding real estate. Portland had infrastructure to build on for housing, etc. the workforce. And the Depression era dams fed massive amounts of electricity into that region of the West, and Alcoa, from memory, had major aluminum smelting operations nearby using that juice. When the ships were done they could get to sea quick and easy--no barging down the Mississippi.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/21/2014 8:51:36 PM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		I'd way more prefer to live in Portland than Seattle, but as long as we're talking about it, Bend OR is the actual location of Heaven. It's also very near Hell if Mt. Hood blows its stack.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/21/2014 9:10:45 PM   
blueatoll


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Status: offline 		If you want a good, fairly readable, book on the US War effort, I'd recommend this one - Freedom's Forge: How American Business Produced Victory in World War II.

Good stuff.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/22/2014 12:15:39 AM   
zuluhour


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Joined: 1/20/2011
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Status: offline 		I would guess the library of congress would house the congressional approvals and contract awards. I would guess all the branches got pretty much what they demanded after Guadalcanal and Torch.




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< Message edited by zuluhour -- 11/22/2014 1:54:19 AM >

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/22/2014 6:14:30 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		The shipyard in the Portland hex was actually in Vancouver. Hanry Kaiser was a steel magnate who wanted to build ships for the war effort. He built one shipyard in the SF Bay Area and another in Vancouver.

A lot of the employees at the Vancouver shipyard lived in a new town built across the Columbia River called Vanport. It was cheaply built for expediency, but Kaiser did believe in taking care of his people. He pioneered giving his employees health insurance as an incentive to get employees. Kaiser Permenente evolved from there.

Vanport was near where the airport is now. It was destroyed not long after the war when an unusually large spring runoff caused a large flood on the Columbia and the town drowned. There were a number of dikes built on the Columbia after that to prevent such floods from creating that level of damage in the future.

I live not far from the Vancouver shipyard site. The site now has a bunch of condos and some restaurants. We sometimes eat at one of the restaurants. They have pictures taken at the shipyard during the war around the restaurant.

Bill

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/22/2014 11:14:04 AM   
zuluhour


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Status: offline 		Bill, I for one would like to see one or two. I really enjoy period photography.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/22/2014 11:31:58 AM   
ny59giants


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quote:

If you want a good, fairly readable, book on the US War effort, I'd recommend this one - Freedom's Forge: How American Business Produced Victory in World War II.


This is what I'm looking for, a book recommendation. Anybody else have a book on this subject??

Thanks for the others and their insight about Portland. I was just using that place as an example. I was up there once over 20 years ago for a job interview with Intel.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/22/2014 2:18:09 PM   
Trugrit


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Status: offline 		Books;

Ships for Victory:
http://www.amazon.com/Ships-Victory-Shipbuilding-Maritime-Commission/dp/0801867525/ref=sr_1_20?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1416615027&sr=1-20&keywords=liberty+ships


http://www.amazon.com/The-Arsenal-Democracy-Detroit-America/dp/0547719280/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_cp_1_KFEM?ie=UTF8&refRID=0YS4ABMMK4MKJTSG942M

http://www.amazon.com/Picture-American-Aircraft-Production-Transportation/dp/048627618X/ref=pd_sim_b_13?ie=UTF8&refRID=1MX80E6QH877HV93P3NJ


By the Way: Victory at Sea for $3.50:
http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Sea-The-Complete-Series/dp/B008XJM7T2/ref=pd_rhf_se_s_cp_21_5F0H?ie=UTF8&refRID=07SZW0SBEMAKEVFQ4WNK



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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/22/2014 11:09:05 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Bill, I for one would like to see one or two. I really enjoy period photography.


Here are some links about the Kaiser shipyard:

http://blog.usamm.com/story-world-war-ii-liberty-ships/
http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/aug/19/war-effort-clark-county-kaiser-shipyard/

I have a book on American aircraft factories that is full of pictures from the factories
http://www.amazon.com/American-Aircraft-Factory-World-War/dp/0760339139/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1416701261&sr=8-11&keywords=bill+yenne

I ordered a similar book on British aircraft factories that I'm giving to my father for Christmas.

Bill

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/23/2014 4:06:39 AM   
SBD

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

If you want a good, fairly readable, book on the US War effort, I'd recommend this one - Freedom's Forge: How American Business Produced Victory in World War II.


This is what I'm looking for, a book recommendation. Anybody else have a book on this subject??



You might consider A Call To Arms Mobilizing America For World War 2 by Maury Kline if you want something that goes into quite a bit of detail (775 pps + notes & index.)

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/23/2014 5:12:52 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
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From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		In response to ny59giants; Bill (wdolson) has a nice take.

Digging through hometown newspapers, diaries, books, and websites, the picture of Portland shipbuilding comes a lot clearer.

Some explicit and some inferential stuff from Maritime Commission and War Planning Board materials (and some Kaiser recommendations) suggests the new industrial centers were contemplated as magnets for the still extent dust bowl/depression victims in the central regions. Sort of a “turn a broke and desperate dust farmer into a self-reliant and proud ship fitter” sort of thing.

Portland (Columbia River) was perfect. Easy, deep water, access to the Pacific; good infrastructure road and rail connections to the steel mills/rolling plants in the lakes region; excellent topography; open land (for storing 50-100,000 tons of plate steel); an educated population base; a small, but established, indigenous shipbuilding capability (Albina E&M Works, Standifer G.M., Northwest Steel, and Columbia River SB Co. for example).

Kaiser chose it, on those bases, for his tanker yard on Swan Island. Then, War imperatives required an increase in “emergency” and general construction yards. Since Kaiser was there already, it made sense to expand Portland facilities to two other yards constructing their own specific vessel types.

The Casablanca CVEs were all on the same hull, a stretched P1, which was a development of the C2. I know the sources say S4, but MC nomenclature simply means the S4 was a “Special” variant of a standard design (the 4th such variant, in fact). P1 was itself based on such a variant of the C2. What was specifically required was the machine/engine yard infrastructure to support the S4 (P1) powerplants. Once that was in place, it made total sense to build as many as possible, as fast as possible, in that specific yard.

Why Portland and not Seattle? Seattle had the same kinda stuff (Ames SB, Duthie & Co, Seattle Pacific, Skinner & Eddy, and Todd in Tacoma). I don’t really know. I have guesses. Seattle got its share of contracts, but for other ship types and didn’t need new yards per se. Also think that the planners (govt and industry) wanted to spread the wealth and spread the migration destinations as well as they were able.


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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/23/2014 11:41:39 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
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From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Seattle also had an aircraft industry that was critical. If the shipyards there expanded too much, they would lure away aircraft workers.

Portland very little in the way of critical defense industries before the war. Expanding there would draw people from civilian industries, some of whom were idled because of the war effort anyway, and draw new people in. Kaiser was also showing himself to be a master at war time expansion and he was established in Portland and the Bay Area. I've read that the war planning board threw Kaiser a contract for merchant ships expecting him to fail, but he completed the order ahead of schedule.

Bill

< Message edited by wdolson -- 11/24/2014 12:42:18 AM >

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/24/2014 12:28:03 AM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
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From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		Oh yes. One “reads” many things. But that one tops the scale for otnay-ootnay-ightbray. You really believe that a nation still struggling out of a depression and desperate to re-establish an industrial base would be so puerile as to throw a gazillion dollar contract to someone they expected to fail?

Perhaps some thought Kaiser would not succeed as well as he advertised, but it was absolutely frikking mandatory that he succeed on a nominal level. He was an established heavy-industrialist so could be expected to do at least as well as anyone else. Obviously he did more than that and made the skeptics look like fools in the process.


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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/24/2014 3:36:04 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I think the war planning board figured Kaiser could build the ships, but not as fast as he did. I believe they thought it would take until mid-45 to complete the first order, but I believe they finished the first order by early 1944. I may have the dates wrong, but I recall he built them far faster than anyone thought possible.

Bill

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/24/2014 3:44:33 PM   
Ralzakark


Posts: 225
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Status: offline 		Try The Unsinkable Fleet by Joel Davidson for the US Navy side.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/24/2014 4:38:30 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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From: The Divided Nations of Earth
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Oh yes. One “reads” many things. But that one tops the scale for otnay-ootnay-ightbray. You really believe that a nation still struggling out of a depression and desperate to re-establish an industrial base would be so puerile as to throw a gazillion dollar contract to someone they expected to fail?



"Nations" don't make decisions. People do. People are fallible.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/24/2014 7:31:03 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
"Nations" don't make decisions. People do. People are fallible.

That's a lovely, glib, and punctilious sentiment. I would think that a number of National Organizations, authorized by Congress and funded by Congress, and overseen by the FDR Executive, would surely constitute a 'national' decision.

Much as progressives don't like to think so, 'people' don't make decisions, 'nations' do.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/24/2014 8:07:57 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
I would think that a number of National Organizations, authorized by Congress and funded by Congress, and overseen by the FDR Executive, would surely constitute a 'national' decision.



Let me know when you meet any of these "nations". All I seem to ever meet are people, some of whom, seem to think they speak for everyone else around them.

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RE: USA war effort - Where & Why there?? - 11/25/2014 10:48:17 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The shipyard in the Portland hex was actually in Vancouver. Hanry Kaiser was a steel magnate who wanted to build ships for the war effort. He built one shipyard in the SF Bay Area and another in Vancouver.

A lot of the employees at the Vancouver shipyard lived in a new town built across the Columbia River called Vanport. It was cheaply built for expediency, but Kaiser did believe in taking care of his people. He pioneered giving his employees health insurance as an incentive to get employees. Kaiser Permenente evolved from there.

Vanport was near where the airport is now. It was destroyed not long after the war when an unusually large spring runoff caused a large flood on the Columbia and the town drowned. There were a number of dikes built on the Columbia after that to prevent such floods from creating that level of damage in the future.

I live not far from the Vancouver shipyard site. The site now has a bunch of condos and some restaurants. We sometimes eat at one of the restaurants. They have pictures taken at the shipyard during the war around the restaurant.

Bill

quote:

Freedom's Forge: How American Business Produced Victory in World War II


One of the shipyards was in Vancouver. Another two were in Oregon, one in Swan Island and one in St Johns. They built mostly merchants and tankers a few attack transports. I think it was this one that got the record for quickest ship from keel to launch.

Actually, just looked it up, and the Swan Island specialized in T2 tankers. Built 153 of them! The St Johns yard built 1244 (!!!) ships, mostly standard EC2 freight haulers and T1 types.

http://www.shipbuildinghistory.com/history/shipyards/4emergencylarge/wwtwo/kswanisland.htm

This is a pretty comprehensive look at the St Johns shipyard from an old article.

http://www.armed-guard.com/recbr1.html

Here is a great pdf on emergency ships in the war.

http://www.ww2ships.com/acrobat/us-os-001-f-r00.pdf

Here is a good pic of the St Johns shipyard in mid-war.




My grandfather worked at the Kaiser yard in Vancouver. Wish he was still around and I could ask him more about it. I'll have to see if my dad has any of his pics from that time.

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< Message edited by obvert -- 11/25/2014 11:49:56 AM >

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