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Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the Mediterranean

 
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Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the Mediterranean - 2/17/2003 6:25:30 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		So Mr Matrix......could we please have a new section for all the posts to do with Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the Mediterranean???????:)

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Post #: 1
- 2/17/2003 10:36:08 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Hmmm...interesting.


Raverdave..is the map hardcoded?

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 2
- 2/17/2003 11:18:07 PM   
Pkunzipper


Posts: 237
Joined: 5/21/2002
Status: offline 		I would like very much to see a "Mediterrean Mod", but I read somewhere that the map is hardcoded....
So we have to wait an official expansion by 2by3...

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Post #: 3
- 2/17/2003 11:20:42 PM   
derwho

 

Posts: 236
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		No expansion packs etc before WiTP! All who say the contrary should be lined up nicly behind a barn and shot.

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Post #: 4
- 2/17/2003 11:25:58 PM   
Yamamoto

 

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pkunzipper
[B]I would like very much to see a "Mediterrean Mod", but I read somewhere that the map is hardcoded....
So we have to wait an official expansion by 2by3... [/B][/QUOTE]

The map couldn't have beem TOO hardcoded because we could edit it before the 2.10 patch. Remember someone found out how to and posted it to the forum? The GRAPHICS would have to be changed by drawing a new bmp file but the important part, each hex's data, could be directly modified by the user. They took that feature out in the 2.10 patch. You could set max base size for air and naval, set terain type and set which hex-sides were passible.

Yamamoto

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 5
- 2/18/2003 12:20:39 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Not sure I see UV as the right engine for "Med" operations. Scale is far too small for 24 hour turns, and shifting the turn time to a lower setting (like 6 hours) would cause too many other radical changes to need to be done.

Couple to that the happenings in the Med were directly related to the rest of the war in Europe. Not sure you can isolate just one little part like that. What would happen if you happened to luck out and sink Rommel's army on it's way to secure North Africa? That entire campaign would not have happened, having huge issues elsewhere.

It is sort of like looking at Battle of Britain, if you win it as the Germans, the implications are somewhat staggering in nature. Operation Sea Lion would have occured, the USA would no longer have had a base to stage from, Germany would have had those additional divisions to deal with Russia properly instead of getting bogged down, etc. Germany may have even settled with Russia at that point in time, resulting in a one front war.

It's a really big "what if?" when you pick a location where "stuff" happened and try and model it in a game. UV has a nice finite area of operation, that did not radically change due to 1 specific event. Few other areas during the war were that static in nature.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 6
- 2/18/2003 5:20:04 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		You have put down some interesting thoughts there Mr.Frag (gawd it's tempting to "drop" the "r";) ).

But surely the same could be said for the Battle for the Coral sea? Is that not why we play these wargames?

As for the size of the Med it self, well thats easy, just resize the hexs to 15 miles rather than 30. But I think that you would find that 30 mile hexs is just fine for a 24 hour impulse. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

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Post #: 7
- 2/18/2003 9:31:55 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]But surely the same could be said for the Battle for the Coral sea?[/QUOTE]

Not really, the whole pacific war can be nicely broken off into one lump sum and parcelled out as they have done in UV, because it happened over a lengthy period of time and had fairly defined resources committed to it.

The happenings in the Med are rather short in nature unless one includes a much bigger troop level element to the game, it really wasn't a major naval conflict. Supplies didn't have to flow from transports really. Battles happened, but it was really just a training ground for folks getting ready for the main event.

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Post #: 8
- 2/18/2003 10:21:57 PM   
Yamamoto

 

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]
Supplies didn't have to flow from transports really. [/B][/QUOTE]

Where did they come from then? The Italians had to move supply from North to South to keep their army ready to fight. The British had to move their supplies from West to East to keep their army ready to fight. I think it would be a great opportunity for naval combat. I think the best scenarios would be before the Germans got involved heavily and before the Americans got involved at all. The British and the Italians were pretty well matched in their naval forces.

Yamamoto

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 9
- 2/18/2003 10:25:38 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		From a geographic map scope, the Mediterranean is not a bad match. Everything from the Suez to Gibraltar and the Adriatic to Tunisia would fit in a map of the same size as the UV map. I suspect that the UV land-battle routine would not adequately recreate the multi-divisional battles in North Africa. It might be fun at the start of the war though.


BTW the map matrix (terrain type, hex sides etc..not the graphical .bmp file) must be hardcoded.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 10
- 2/18/2003 11:35:58 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		A hypothetical campaign could be created by assuming the Italians had plenty of fuel to start, and got more from the Germans/EU. You could also have a "Vichy French" option where the French fleet and ports go over to the Axis. Add in an accelerating USN presence, and you could have a valid PBEM campaign either way. Virtually unlimited Allied fuel from the oil fields, but they have to ship in supplies through the Strait via ship, and no major Fleet repair bases. Lose the oil fields and they'd have to ship in fuel as well. Axis would have shorter supply lines, repair bases, but limited fuel unless they took the oil fields.

Make it Med, Red Sea, and North/West Africa and you could have an interesting campaign.

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Post #: 11
- 2/19/2003 12:04:32 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Great...when its ready I'll be the Ethiopians!!

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Post #: 12
- 2/19/2003 12:34:33 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamamoto
[B]Where did they come from then? The Italians had to move supply from North to South to keep their army ready to fight. The British had to move their supplies from West to East to keep their army ready to fight. I think it would be a great opportunity for naval combat. I think the best scenarios would be before the Germans got involved heavily and before the Americans got involved at all. The British and the Italians were pretty well matched in their naval forces.

Yamamoto [/B][/QUOTE]

Supplies for the most part could be shipped overland by rail or truck. Yes, US convoys had to come across the Atlantic to unload, but that is on the other side of the "Rock". Germany sent supplied south, not north by ship around spain to get there. Italy? Well, lets just say they were out of the war before it started :D If you want to cap the timeframe to pre-germany involvement, it comes down to one fleet battle between Italy and England assuming the Italian ships even live long enough to set to sea (airpower). If you revamp the land portion of UV and revamp the sub portion of UV, it might be decent, but as it sits now, the game would be over in less then a week I would think.

Remember, we have history on our side, we tend to play more aggressively then it really was, and as a result, our results tend to be extremely time compressed.

It is tough to have vested interests in the political concequences of a defeat when *we* toss troops into harms way. To us, they are simply a paper counter on the table. How would you like it if in UV, you loose a major battle and suddenly find that ships are being withdraw to Pearl on you because High Command just got told "don't risk anymore major ships" by a sway in public opinion.

War is fought by soldiers but the strings are pulled by politics. We don't have to deal with the politics in our games (yet). Close Combat was pretty good in exposing you to this element, where your troops would rebel against your orders. This kind of element would need to be factored into a Med game (as various nations involved swayed as to who and what they were fighting for). UV is much cleaner in this regard. Neither side would have backed off an inch, and it really was a pure fight to the death, no holds barred.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 13
- 2/19/2003 1:06:05 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		I continue to believe that the Mediterranean theater in WWII and the UV game system are a perfect match. A number of things would have to be different, to be sure, but that would be so no matter what milieu you try to place a previously-developed game engine in.

The focus would be, as it is in UV, on naval and air warfare (and I completely disagree that the Mediterranean campaign wasn't a major naval conflict). The surrounding war would have to be abstracted to a degree and reflect developments in other theaters, but this is not difficult. Reinforcements and replacements would be affected, and force withdrawals to meet impending disaster elsewhere would be necessary (Force H being reassigned to duty in the Atlantic to take part in the Bismarck chase, for example).

I believe that most of the ground war could be effectively represented in UV/WITP terms. Rommel and Eighth Army slugging it out while the naval and air forces on both sides struggle to maintain supply links and defend/invade Malta.

Think of how much fun it would be to plan the Allied North Africa and Sicily campaigns - and undertake the invasion of Italy.

I believe that this poses a pretty little design problem. I hope that Matrix/2by3 undertake it.

And besides, if you don't give me this game, I'm gonna sit here and hold my breath until I turn blue.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 14
- 2/19/2003 3:04:06 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]And besides, if you don't give me this game, I'm gonna sit here and hold my breath until I turn blue.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I give! :(

Can't have you turning blue :eek:

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 15
- 2/19/2003 3:26:50 AM   
Blitzer

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		This Med idea has been tossed around for months. It's got definite potential, and deserves discussion.

What I have not seen anyone touch on is using this game system - with appropriate modifications - to model the Battle of the Atlantic. This could be a comprehensive representation of the conflict: subs, capital ships, commerce raiders, aircraft, and of course transports. The wolfpack/convoy aspect alone would be a game unto itself.

Allies would get points for delivering cargoes to the UK and the Soviet Union, as well as trashing Axis planes and naval vessels. These cargoes could be differentiated into troops, foodstuffs, ammo, soft goods, various military hardware, etc all with their own victory values. Conversely, Germans would accrue points for sinking these same cargoes and wrecking the Allied equipment transporting and defending them.

Production could also be portrayed, with the Germans for example choosing to crank out anti-shipping aircraft, advanced-type uboats, or additional surface forces according to their strategic priorities and industrial base. The Allies for their part, would have similar options.

Naturally the map for this would have to be enormous, ideally covering everything from the North Cape to southern Africa, and the Caribbean to the Indian Ocean, where even IJN subs could come into the mix.

Just an idea, as if Matrix's plate isn't heaped high enough already.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 16
- 2/19/2003 4:13:30 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Ok, I give! :(

Can't have you turning blue :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't LOOK bluish.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 17
- 2/19/2003 4:36:57 AM   
Yamamoto

 

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blitzer
[B]What I have not seen anyone touch on is using this game system - with appropriate modifications - to model the Battle of the Atlantic. [/B][/QUOTE]

That’s because it would be boring. All the Germans had to speak of was a bunch of subs. The few surface ships that got loose to do a little reading were quickly retired… except for the ones that never made it back.

I can’t imagine any player having fun with OLNY subs as a viable force, even though subs are my second favorite type of ship. Let’s face it: the German Navy just wasn’t ready for the Second World War. England still ruled the waves. Now maybe an optional scenario where the Germans capture Gibraltar and let the Italian navy out to play might be interesting but, by their selves, the German navy wouldn’t be any fun to play.

Yamamoto

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Post #: 18
- 2/19/2003 8:01:02 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		In Uncommon Valour, scenario 17 is not historical.

Scenario 16 is historical but it starts after Coral Sea. And therefore the players cannot re-create Coral Sea.

Both these points grate on me.

There are other scenarios that are historical, but the Allies force is so overwhelming, the Japanese player has no hope. Or to rephrase it, the Japanese starting score it way too low.

Now Juliet7bravo has mentioned a hypothetical scenario and Raverdave is sure to request a hypothetical with a German carrier in the Med.

A game set in the Med must be historical or else there is no point. It needs to start with the Italian push towards Egypt and it needs to end with the fall of Rome.

And remember the Vichty French fought the Aussies in Syria.

And we had battles in Greece and Crete.

Which means ground combat will play a much bigger part in the game than it does in UV.

But why stick with the Med alone? To quote myself:

I know there has been talk that UV-3 might be set in the Med.

But it seems to me that the Med is too small. In would love to see a game made with the UV engine that covers a much larger area.

The area that I have in mind would be the same area covered by the map board in Avalon Hill’s Third Reich.

But I would extend the map further into the Atlantic to allow the U Boats to operate there.

Supply needs to be re-done otherwise my panzers in Russia would stall too easily.

I have this vision of a game where the best features of 3R, are combined with the best features of UV.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 19
- 2/19/2003 8:42:53 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Tell you what, Joe. Let's have 'em do UV in the Med, then use that as the foundation on which WITP in Europe can be built.

I suggest this only to serve my selfish desire for a UV in the Med game and in hope that the UV/WITP engine will be recognized by Matrix/2by3 as totally unsuitable for a strategic simulation of the war in Europe.

Then, maybe UV could be adapted later on for an interesting treatment of the Battle of the Atlantic ... (surface and submarine)?

And no - no - NO German carrier in the Mediterranean, please.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 20
- 2/19/2003 9:17:25 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		You don't need a German carrier when the Vichy French had the carrier Bearn. It was kept in the French West Indies(?)but wonder if the French got out of Mers-el-Kebir before the Brits caught them in Harbor? The Germans don't have a naval presence in the Med and don't need to when the French and Italian Navies outnumber the Brits. The French alone had 77 subs and the Italians even more. French had 7BBs and the Italians 6.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 21
- 2/19/2003 9:45:45 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]You don't need a German carrier when the Vichy French had the carrier Bearn. It was kept in the French West Indies(?)but wonder if the French got out of Mers-el-Kebir before the Brits caught them in Harbor? The Germans don't have a naval presence in the Med and don't need to when the French and Italian Navies outnumber the Brits. The French alone had 77 subs and the Italians even more. French had 7BBs and the Italians 6. [/B][/QUOTE]

Some of the great "what ifs" and "fun boats" that would enrich this game. Just think of how the Taranto airstrike would have to be built into (or out of) the scenarios.

Agonize as the Germans over the Crete operation. Chew your fingernails as the desperate air and surface battles develop while the Fallschirmjaegers fight grimly to seize their objectives. Struggle bravely as the British with inferior resources and impossible strategic considerations to bring the war to the enemy.

I tell ya, brothers, this one has it all.

Need I even mention the invasion of Malta? How about the chance to command those elegantly beautiful white ships of the Regia Marina?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 22
- 2/19/2003 10:35:21 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		This was brought up in an early thread and obviously won't go away. the Med has everything: naval battles, air battles, sub battles(including midget and frogman attacks), the precursor to Pearl Harbor (Taranto), massive parachute drops (Crete: wonder if it had been an shoreline invasion?), infantry battles in North Aftrica, Greece, Syria,Malta, maybe Turkey if the Axis is winning. Its very exciting if it can be done.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 23
- 2/19/2003 10:50:21 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		It was someone at 2by3 who mentioned last spring that they were interested in creating a MEd theatre game based on the UV engine, IF UV sales warrant the continued developement of the engine.

As for Mr Frag's statement that the Mediterranean theatre was not a naval campaign, he has much to learn about that theatre. All shipments to north africa went over the sea. Yes, the Axis tried some air supply, but as we all know from playing UV, air supply is not going to support an army. It was of crucial importance to the British to neutralize the Axis fleets in order to allow the shorter supply route through the Med (as opposed to sending them around the Cape of Good Hope). The air bases in Malta proved to be a major thorn in the side of the Axis attempts to keep the Africa Korps supplied, and proved difficult to supply itself (read the classic story of the tanker Ohio to learn just how much damage a ship can take and still reach its destination).

Both the battles for Greece and Crete resulted in major evacuation attempts for the Royal Navy.

In many ways, the Mediterranean Theatre requires a studied application of the combined arms approach to warfare, an approach that is the heart of the UV system. If you can't get the needed supplies to either the 8th Army or Afrika Korps, then you can expect to see your ground forces reeling in defeat.

I am very much looking forward to the expansion of the UV engine into the Med. I would expect that the ground combat engine is going to be improved to handle the CBI theatre for WITP anyway, and so I am sure that it will translate over to the Med as well. I can't wait to try the whole campaign.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 24
Okay, I'll stop beating it to death - but first... - 2/19/2003 12:43:47 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		This narrative may pique your interest in playing a game based on these tremendously desperate times (it's from [url]www.regiamarina.net/[/url]):

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 25
- 2/19/2003 1:09:53 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		bradfordkay,

Remember that the entire Italian Navy was held in check by a bunch of Fairey Swordfish, probably the most famous torpedo bomber in history (It also happened to bring about the death of the Bismarck). The attack on Taranto has actually been credited as giving Yamamoto the concept for his attack on Pearl Harbor the following year. Italy had little fuel and no radar. It lost at every turn of the war yet for all intensive purposes, it was the dominant naval power in the Med.

One forgets that the reason the Wasp was late turning up in our game is that it was busy bringing Spitfires to Malta.

Thirteen convoys fought their way into Malta under heavy air attack from August 1940 through January 1943. 13!!! thats it! Exciting eh? America comes into the picture Nov 8th, 1942 and basically ends it right there although it took some time to crush Rommel's Afrika Korps and send them packing.

The premise of sitting in Malta, and doing nothing much except get hammered by a highly skilled air corps (Fliegerkorps X) just doesn't really appeal to me. With the existing UV system, Malta would fold after 2 days of bombing and the game would end.

Rather exciting eh?

Malta is 58 miles from Sicily. 58!!! so, thats 2 hexes in UV? Boy, going to be tough to read the names as they'll overlap :D

A 24 hour turn when dealing with distances of 58 miles is just plain silly. UV's engine is for epic scales, not for tactical distances.

With the political silliness and poor command, you might just have some form of game, but to make it anywhere near realistic would involve major handicapping of players so they couldn't use the assets they have anywhere near the way they use them in UV.

To each their own I guess, not a game I'd be buying. UV doesn't suit the scale and radical changes to the scale would completely upset most of the code used for other things. I doubt that any credible AI could be built into the game, and although a fair percentage of folks are PBEM, there is a much larger audience that is not that Matrix would like to make money off of...

Btw: please don't assume that people don't know things just because something doesn't appeal to them :D

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 26
- 2/19/2003 2:08:52 PM   
Veer


Posts: 2231
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Excuse me
Status: offline 		Med is a good idea, but there are problems:

1) The Med campaign wasn't a single campaign - like the South pacific was. There are several distinct phases, and for the brits and Germans at least ships and subs were withdrawn and then reassigned. As current barring the player sending ships back, there is no withdrawal mechnasim.

2) Land Combat played a much more Important role in the med than it did in the south pacific. North Africa, Greece, Crete, Sicily... In the UV land Combat attacking forces need a 2-1 superiority in numbers to 'win'. Blitzkreig possible? Crete possible? No.

Thus the land combat aspect of it will have to be handled 'outside' the game. If the focus is on the naval battles (which will more often than not be LBA vs the british navy, not ship vs ship) the focus will have to be only on the naval aspect.

Trying to cover the entire Med from '40 to '43 will be a more of a WITP type of game than UV.

_____________________________

In time of war the first casualty is truth. - Boake Carter

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 27
- 2/19/2003 2:33:22 PM   
Veer


Posts: 2231
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Excuse me
Status: offline 		Try this link, some usefull imformation:

[URL=http://www.airandseamodels.com/demo/med-2/mainmenu.htm]Naval and Air war in the Med[/URL]

-------------------------------------------
[IMG]http://www.airandseamodels.com/demo/med-2/taranto-3.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.airandseamodels.com/demo/med-2/taranto-6.jpg[/IMG]

_____________________________

In time of war the first casualty is truth. - Boake Carter

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 28
- 2/19/2003 2:51:41 PM   
Veer


Posts: 2231
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Excuse me
Status: offline 		Found this little Gem:

"1941: Feb 18 - In a daring operation, Luftwaffe’s 4./KG4 bombers drop mines in the Suez Canal. The Canal would be closed for several weeks."

Who wants to bet that in any UV-Med game, both the Canal and Gibralter will be permanently closed!:p

_____________________________

In time of war the first casualty is truth. - Boake Carter

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 29
- 2/19/2003 6:06:17 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		So many what ifs with the UV MED game........Can the poms close the entrance to the MED? Can the Germans break through? What would have happened if the invasion of Crete had failed? What would have happen if Greece held? *Drool drool drool*:cool:

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 30
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