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Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 9:23:18 AM

Rongor

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In my ongoing MP game, I realized:

CP only stand a chance in long terms when receiving at least some convoys. The domestic PP is a joke compared to the Ententes constant inbound stream of overseas PP.

While protecting my relatively "safe" convoy in the Baltic sea, I took on the russian sub and the annoying british subs, a smart opponent will send you there. I found out not only that subs are practically invulnerable, combat prediction most often giving them even more kills than my ASW light cruisers. They literally represent the real dreadnoughts in this game because they receive almost no damage at all.
I am in mid 1915 now and I still didn't acquire that depth charges tech, which will add +2 to the 3 antisub attack value, my level IV light cruisers have. It takes a looong time to that step and until then, your light cruisers and their lvl3-antisub attack are basically useless. So you do can nothing but watching the enemy taking all your convoys out with 3 to 4 British and Russian subs. All your other convoys are taken care of by the Entente's overwhelming fleets before they can reach the German bight. You can try to attack those with your subs, but it takes lots of time to build up a decent sub force and to then inflict worthwhile damage.

The worst part is the following:
Even if you dare to take on their subs with some light cruisers, it isn't actually them who get trapped and killed, it is you!

Surface vessels can get trapped by subs just like that. You can do nothing about it. Watch your ASW force get annihilated, they can't escape and those subs don't even have to hide because they are real bad boys und your ships are made of cardboard.

Look at this:
My light cruisers are trapped. Attacking a sub gives a 0-2 kill prediction, so there is really nothing to worry about for a sub.

(Those red icons were drawn onto the map by me to mark my convoy routes)

Subs are overpowered and break it at this point. At least to let them trap surface vessels was a wrong decision in my opinion. They are unstoppable. And to underline their badassness, don't forget they also have that cloaking device and also THEY CAN escape traps. Did I mention they are quite cheap? They cost a bit more than half of a CL. While inflicting significant more damage. What a mess.

< Message edited by Rongor -- 8/24/2015 10:31:59 AM >

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 10:16:40 AM

operating

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As far as strategy goes, or rather tactics you should mainly focus on attacking E subs with Zeppelins (when in range) with G subs as spotters and only have surface fleets up north if you have enough G subs to cover their flanks. So I ask: Where are the 3 G Subs you started the game with? Also you have to be pretty far into the match to have at least 2 English subs there, you've had a while to prepare for this, it's quite common now for E player to load up on subs in the Baltic, it's not a new strategy...

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 10:32:38 AM

Rongor

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I don't think you can reach these seazones at the northern map border (the baltic G convoy spawn)with Zeppelins based in G.

My G subs are busy taking out the E fleet one by one.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 10:44:46 AM

operating

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

I don't think you can reach these seazones at the northern map border (the baltic G convoy spawn)with Zeppelins based in G.

My G subs are busy taking out the E fleet one by one.

No you can't, unless the G push east of Koenigsberg towards Riga. That peninsula between the two is an excellent staging area for zeppelins to reach all the Northern Baltic hexes..

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 11:11:27 AM

Rongor

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yeah, unfortunately it is out of reach in the near future of my game. We have April 1915 and I need my forces to rather contain Russia than gaining territory, Italy is opening up within the next 3 turns.
I am down to about 30 PP for Germany each turn, so I can't build many stuff draining any more upkeep. Hence it is hard to face the impossibility of regaining at least a single convoy route.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 1:49:01 PM

Jagdtiger14

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What does E and G mean?

_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 1:57:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

What does E and G mean?

E-Entente

G-Germany

AH-Austro-Hungary

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 2:07:42 PM

Rongor

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I am honestly totally disappointed with the CLs. They are advertized as your main ASW choice, but failing to be of any ASW value for at least a year or so into the game.

Are CLs doing much better later with ASW increased to 5 and beyond?
And how much damage does a Zeppelin run actually do to a class I or II sub?

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out CLs are bugged right now, with their ASW value being inactive or something.

< Message edited by Rongor -- 8/24/2015 3:10:03 PM >

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 2:33:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

yeah, unfortunately it is out of reach in the near future of my game. We have April 1915 and I need my forces to rather contain Russia than gaining territory, Italy is opening up within the next 3 turns.
I am down to about 30 PP for Germany each turn, so I can't build many stuff draining any more upkeep. Hence it is hard to face the impossibility of regaining at least a single convoy route.

Yup, You're in a tough spot! If possible build another G Sub and stick it in where the convoys enter, at least that way E won't be sinking any more convoys. Be patient and keep checking with your other subs for an opportunity to open up another sea hex or hexes. Once the G subs develop to Class V, then they get pretty deadly, even towards other subs. Sooner or later damaged E subs are going to have to return to port for repairs. Or, turn the whole idea of saving Baltic convoys to attacking E convoys, make E feel the pain.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 2:57:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

I am honestly totally disappointed with the CLs. They are advertized as your main ASW choice, but failing to be of any ASW value for at least a year or so into the game.

Are CLs doing much better later with ASW increased to 5 and beyond?
And how much damage does a Zeppelin run actually do to a class I or II sub?

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out CLs are bugged right now, with their ASW value being inactive or something.

No, cruisers are great in home waters or for convoy protection providing you refrain from attacking E subs with them. Cruisers are relatively cheap to repair, especially if they have helped in getting a G convoy to home port. Most likely Zeps will cause at least 1 damage point to a British class II sub or at least 2 damage points if that same E sub was involved in an attack.

Many times in MP as G, I'll rip apart the English CLs with G class II and III subs, however G has to have the numbers, and don't forget their stealth... It's a constant cycle of attack-repair, with success, whatever remains of the English fleet ends up hiding in port, opening the door to unfeathered E convoy raids. Just 1 convoy hit is worth 10 PP, if one of your G subs takes a hit, it only costs 1 PP to repair. 10 to 1 is not a bad trade off.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 5:35:03 PM

Rongor

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Sounds reasonable indeed. Thanks for all your advice. I have 8 commissioned subs on duty in April 1915 right now, would you say it is too late to build this force up to effective numbers? I consider to need 13, preferably 15 subs...

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 6:44:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Sounds reasonable indeed. Thanks for all your advice. I have 8 commissioned subs on duty in April 1915 right now, would you say it is too late to build this force up to effective numbers? I consider to need 13, preferably 15 subs...

If you having an effective CP naval campaign reducing the size of the E navy and at the same time increasing your fleets, you may be able to reach the 1.5 ratio to break the North Sea Blockade, prompting the Norway and South Seas convoys to deploy again. Just getting 1 convoy through would be worth it, plus it would drive E into a Tizzy of what to do... I hope you are giving G sub techs priority... Are you able to build a sufficient AH sub force? I usually get that going to thin out the French navy and put to the bottom English armored cruisers and pre-dreadnaughts that cost them virtually nothing to repair. Make um sweat! To me the only way to save the Adriatic once the Italians enter is to have a decent or more than decent sub fleets, again their sub techs should get priority..

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 8:22:49 PM

Rongor

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Yes! already working on it, the 4th AH sub just entered service! The three others successfully fended off the inbound Gallipoli landing group. Taking them out one by one now near Crete. So yes, I absolutely plan to harass the E with my subforce. Luckily subs are built relatively fast.

Unfortunately that G Baltic convoy keeps spawning again and again. Never had one from the other routes in the last months. His sub trap kills it, 2 turns later, next one spawns. So your advice of placing my own sub there can definitely help! But will my sub be able to break through that barrier? I am afraid not.

< Message edited by Rongor -- 8/24/2015 9:23:07 PM >

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/24/2015 10:22:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Yes! already working on it, the 4th AH sub just entered service! The three others successfully fended off the inbound Gallipoli landing group. Taking them out one by one now near Crete. So yes, I absolutely plan to harass the E with my subforce. Luckily subs are built relatively fast.

Unfortunately that G Baltic convoy keeps spawning again and again. Never had one from the other routes in the last months. His sub trap kills it, 2 turns later, next one spawns. So your advice of placing my own sub there can definitely help! But will my sub be able to break through that barrier? I am afraid not.

When he is killing your Baltic convoys it's adding a negative to your NM (-NM to your overall naval losses), not sure if is affecting MP, for the convoys also carry MPs. If you have: let's say 2 or more subs up where the convoys enter, one being in the only open hex for convoys (presuming 1 hex is open), the sharks may not realize this strategy that you are blocking your own convoys, if they do: then you can move one of your other sub fleets into the newly created opening and perhaps create a path over time for your convoys to make a run, it's like a really slow chess match. What it does is: causes E point losses trying to dig you out of that corner, especially if you have a second sub there undetected with an admiral. Don't put the admiral in the disputed hex in case you have to sail off for repairs or upgrades. It's a lot harder for E subs to kill G subs. Unlikely British subs will head all the way back to England for upgrades, so you may get the upper hand after awhile.. The only drawback would be: If R deploys airships around Helsinki or Tallinn. You might even try an amphib assault on Finland that may distract the E fleets also, be it succeeds or not...

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/25/2015 5:07:35 PM

Rongor

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Ok. Apparently it is possible to send subs through a barrier of enemy subs. My sub arrived safely on the convoy spawn hex, without being noticed.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 2:48:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Ok. Apparently it is possible to send subs through a barrier of enemy subs. My sub arrived safely on the convoy spawn hex, without being noticed.

Take note: If the convoy cannot spawn at it's usual sea hex, it will spawn at the next open map edge sea hex.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 4:14:58 AM

Rongor

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Hopefully those spaces are still occupied by the hidden neighbours :)

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 4:51:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Hopefully those spaces are still occupied by the hidden neighbours :)

Let's say it is open, have another sub fleet handy to fill that space, for your opponent may leave it open on purpose so the he can get a whack at the convoy. It's possible he knows you are there, but does not let on he knows. Let's call it subterfuge, it's all about stealth and cunning.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 6:57:31 AM

Rongor

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Damn, the hex south of it was empty. Unfortunately this is the only convoy route spawning since a dozen turns or so. Never seen cargo spawning at Narvik or the Atlantic for months now.

So I will occupy that other hex too. All other adjacent hexes are already blocked.

Besides that my subfleet continues to clean up the North Sea and the Channel. Entente surface naval activity has almost ceased. Germany now has a good dozen of subs (still building more, aiming for 15), splitting up now to serve those two convoy arrival hotspots at northern Ireland and west of Brest. Luckily I got Antwerp just in time to extend my supply. Whatever still leaves British ports are mostly single cruisers or some of the dreadnoughts. In these occasions I encircle them instantly with subs and kill them all!

AH submarines are doing the same in the eastern mediterranean now. I can only see one lonely armed cruiser left which shouldn't dare to leave port of Suez. I have 6 AH subs in service now and the can are waiting for convoys finally.

Don't think he will receive any convoys anymore for the rest of the year.

< Message edited by Rongor -- 8/26/2015 7:58:54 AM >

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 10:17:13 AM

operating

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Your navy has to be a half time bigger than the E navy in order to break the North Sea Blockade (which includes Narvik and South Seas convoys), that's why you are not seeing any convoys other than from Sweden.

How many British dreadnothings have you sunk?

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 10:45:36 AM

Rongor

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Is there a Sea blockade by event that prevents spawning of the convoys and checking for fleet strenght?

The British still have their 4 dreads and maybe 4 light cruisers but everything else is gone. The Canuck fleet may still roam the Atlantic though.

French and Italian stuff concentrates in the Mediterranean and possibly south Atlantic (frenchies) but those in the Med slowly getting eaten now by my AH subs.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 12:15:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Is there a Sea blockade by event that prevents spawning of the convoys and checking for fleet strenght?

The British still have their 4 dreads and maybe 4 light cruisers but everything else is gone. The Canuck fleet may still roam the Atlantic though.

French and Italian stuff concentrates in the Mediterranean and possibly south Atlantic (frenchies) but those in the Med slowly getting eaten now by my AH subs.

Usually and most likely the first damage done to a G convoy triggers the "North Sea Blockade" (very early in a match), it's an event that can be easily missed or go unnoticed during the first phase of a busy game.

Check the lua files under "events"...

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 12:44:59 PM

Rongor

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If the program just adds all the strength numbers disregarding the PP the specific vessel did cost, I might have a chance, since the German subs alone add up to 120, which is 3 times the British dreadnoughts. If PP value of the units is taken in to account, he holds me by the balls.

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RE: Submarines opverpowered - 8/26/2015 1:33:34 PM

operating

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

If the program just adds all the strength numbers disregarding the PP the specific vessel did cost, I might have a chance, since the German subs alone add up to 120, which is 3 times the British dreadnoughts. If PP value of the units is taken in to account, he holds me by the balls.

I'm pretty sure it's strength for strength, don't forget to include the whole E navy from all their countries... Try and do a amphib landing over in England or Russia as a feint to draw out their navies for a kill. It might sound crazy: try using Zeps on surface fleets before attacking with subs and or other surface fleets, the air losses might seem real bad at first, but often they are the key to sinking an enemy fleet.