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Barbarossa strategies - 5/16/2014 3:21:43 AM

juntoalmar

Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
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Hi,

I'm learning how to play MWiF, by now, just with Barbarossa scenario. But I must say, although german player can advance at slow pace, is never enough to win the game. I think I know the mechanics well (kind of), but now I need to learn the �how to� doing things optimal. This are my �tricks�, but I ask if there's any other thing I could use to improve my play with the germans, if you could post here. I'm playing with 1D10, but I will try next game with 2D10.

- I try to use my panzers on clear hexes (non cities) to get the +0,5 bonus on the die roll.
- Try to use blitzkrieg table as much as possible
- I try to disorganized and leave out of supply units to easily beat them, but can't leave cities unsupplied in the cities

- I try to attack at least with 5:1 during the turn. At the end of the turn I take bolder actions as I predict some disorganizations at the end of the turn.
- I try to use all the HQ to reorganize units in the turn (not very soon, so I can advance with the rest of units).

But basically, it is not enough. If I try to attack with 5:1 during most of the impulses, my advance is very slow. And when it starts to rain/snow... it's hard to advance much more. As long as Russians put a couple of strong units in a city, I have to attack with +8 units, maybe ground strike... and still I may get just a 3:1 or 4:1, so it's likely to have all those units disorganized. Then, advancing very slow if I can only conquer a couple of cities per turn.

The same with Leningrad. In the Fast Scenario, there is 11 russian factors there, x2 because it's a swamp, and half the combat value for all units attacking from the south. If I wait until snow comes... the swamp is frozen and I can use some units to attack through the Ladoga lake frozen... but in snow weather I get a -2 column shift. What is your strategy here?

One more thing. Why in the first impulse german airplanes that do Ground Support have halved tactical factors but throw the dice twice?

Thanks a lot for your opinions. I'm willing to learn from the gurus...

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Post #: 1

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/16/2014 4:11:40 AM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline

And I quote the holy book of WiF strategy:

quote:

KILLLLLLLLLLLLL!

Your first turn should be spent either isolating or slaughtering the Soviets. If you can do that, you can advance willy nilly throughout J/A and S/O.

Now, you have two huge advantages. 1, the Soviets set up before you do, so the German player can optimize his deployment to beat up what the Soviets put together. 2) The Soviets are stuck leaving at least 20 corps sized units on the border, where they're easy pickings.

Now, a lot of it depends on how the Soviets set up, but the border's pretty wide. They can't stack both 2 high and form a continuous front with only the 27 corps they start with. So you're either left with something wide but not deep, or a bunch of guys stacked 2 high with spaces in between them.

If it's the former, don't bother with groundstrikes. Take a land, ground support when you attack, and try to isolate units by attacking either end of their line with blitz capables and breaking through behind them.

If it's the latter, try to groundstrike a few holes in them where they're in the open on the surprise impulse. Especially fun is to flip 2 units, send in flankers to knock them out of supply, and overrun and pour through the gap. Consider taking an air impulse if they're really sticking their chin out, especially if their 2 HQ are too far away to reorg (although, if you can paralyze both Timoshenko and Yeremenko doing reorgs, that can be awesome all of itself.)

Leningrad's a tough nut to crack. I find that the best way is to do what the Germans did historically: Aim at the south. The Ukraine's nice and open and has plenty of points for you to pick up.

Also, I don't remember what the default options are, but play with scrapping, and eliminate the older, weaker planes, especially bombers. You need to hit, and hit hard from the air.

That's about all I can say off the top of my head. If you're looking for something more specific, could you post up a screenshot of a Soviet deployment? I can give you some pointers, but it's easier to deal with a position I can see and analyze than just spout theory.

If on the surprise impulse, the Germans are halved on ground support, that's a bug: They should be doubled. But you don't throw the dice for ground support, it sounds like you're ground striking (which you roll to flip them) not ground supporting (where you add factors to your attack or defense). At a guess, you're trying to ground strike someone in a forest (halves your factors) but on the surprise impulse (roll twice), and it's applying both at once. Try groundstriking someone you know is in a clear hex.

(in reply to juntoalmar)

Post #: 2

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/16/2014 3:35:41 PM

Courtenay

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Joined: 11/12/2008
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The quick start Barbarossa Soviet set up is awful. Ground strike stacks of Soviet units to flip some of them, and then move up to flipped stacks, ooze around them, and kill. There are two Soviet units on the border that, if both of them are flipped, you can put out of supply the first impulse and overrun them. No sane Soviet player would allow this in an actual game; I suspect that this was done as a teaching tool. I have only done the first turn and a half of the Barbarossa scenario, and gave it up because the Russians had been more or less blown off the map. Admittedly, the Germans got lucky on their ground strikes, but von Leeb got flipped in an attack on L'vov the very first impulse.

Ground striking being halved the first impulse is not a bug. Your ground striking units value is halved when ground striking into forest, swamp, or jungle. The first impulse, you get two roll twice for all ground striking aircraft, so use every air action you have on ground striking. Their are four units in Minsk, and you have a bomber with range enough to get there. Blast them.

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Post #: 3

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/16/2014 6:50:34 PM

Centuur

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From: Hoorn (NED).
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Ur-Vile Wedge is right. Especially the part on which you have to make a decision where to attack.

Aim for either the north, or the south. Not both, since it seems Germany has got the forces to attack at all places, but in reality your attack will go best, if you concentrate on one part of the front. Put your "kill stacks" there and screen off the other part.

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RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/17/2014 1:03:43 AM

juntoalmar

Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
Status: offline

Thanks for your comments, gentlemen.

I'd check if I was bombing into forest (actually, it would be nice, if you could see the modifiers for ground strike in the form).

What about leaving some units out of supply, forget about them and leaving them back?

You could try to kill them after they move (if they do) and become disorganized. Is it a wise strategy, or it's better to have a consistent front line?

I will check some of the AAR out there, to see if I see more of my strategy flaws...

Thanks guys!

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(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 5

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/17/2014 1:44:34 AM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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Anyone out of supply and flipped should be destroyed, it won't be that hard.

If they're still face up? A lot depends on how vital the area they're blocking off with their ZOC is, and if they can re-enter supply in one move.

It's hard to make any generalized strategies for something like that, but my general view is "Can I keep advancing and striking at the main enemy force even with these guys behind my lines?" If the answer is yes, ignore them. If it's no, kill them.

(in reply to juntoalmar)

Post #: 6

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/17/2014 2:28:34 PM

Klydon

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Some questions:

First, are you using the O-chit on the initial invasion? (I would not as you should be able to get going with the surprise rules).

Speaking of the O-chit, of the many uses it has, probably only two are in play for the campaign. The first is to use a HQ and double units on the attack. You probably want to use Rundstedt for this purpose and probably towards the end of a turn since he will flip at the end anyway. The second is to use it to unflip all your HQ's. I could see it getting used for that as well.

I agree you can make a big push either north or south, but not both. Against good Russian play, you are not getting Leningrad in this scenario, so don't even push up there. Keep your units concentrated in kill stacks. Part of the issue of the north is the forests and various river lines. All these will slow down the German advance.

I am not an expert at this game at all and I know many players like the ground strikes. I personally don't care for them that much, especially in the north where most Russian units are going to be in woods. The other issue with using ground strikes is it counts against your mission limit every turn. On the surprise turn, your tactical factors are doubled. That in of itself is very powerful. The fewer other missions you take that use your mission limit is another plane you can move up to the front lines at the end of your impulse. That in of itself is important because Russians taking a chance doing a ground strike on your panzer spearheads when they have no air cover is a favorite past time and good use of Russian aircraft.

Good discussion.

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)

Post #: 7

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/17/2014 8:31:41 PM

Centuur

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From: Hoorn (NED).
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On Ground strikes: make a calculation.

If you can get an odds shift using the plane for ground support, do so and don't use it for a ground strike. If you can't and there is a good opportunity to strike, do so.

There is one exception on this rule. Always ground strike an HQ if it is without FTR cover and you've got 30% or more chance to disorganised it, especially when it is early in the turn and you can get an attack on it (for the Axis side only).

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Post #: 8

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/17/2014 10:32:30 PM

paulderynck

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From: Canada
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Another exception is if you have an opportunity to put and keep the unit OOS and then attack it in a later impulse.

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RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/21/2014 3:11:14 PM

pzgndr

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Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
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Courtenay provided an improved quick start setup for the Russians which has a much different feel. See http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3504213

Perhaps a few other quick start setups could be developed for Barbarossa and Quadalcanal, with the different optional rule sets and with different setups? That would be nice.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 10

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 1/1/2015 5:36:19 PM

NCommander

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Joined: 11/26/2007
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I'm currently working on Barb, on Turn #4 and the Axis are doing well, snagging Kiev on Turn 1, although the Soviets managed to gum them up in the south (requiring the o-chit to break it). I took very few losses so I built a second o-chit which will land turn #5 and try to use it to grab Leningrad at the very end. It's def. possible, just requires you to fight hard and fast, and towards the end of a turn, be willing to accept lower odd assaults (I grabbed Keiv on a 3:1 assault just before the turn ended. DIsorganized everyone, but turn end, and everyone flipped back up).

The soviets have been lucky, I only got 9 impulses Turn 1, and 8 on Turn 2 (seriously, turn ended at 30% chance :-()

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Post #: 11

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 1/3/2015 4:43:06 AM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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It's not that unlucky. If you've got good weather and the impulse tracker is only going one space at a time, on the 30% chance, you've already had a 20 and a 10. Roll them all together and you've got a 1-(.9 * .8 * .7) chance of the turn still going, which is just about 50-50.

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Post #: 12

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/18/2015 5:06:56 AM

juntoalmar

Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
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What about starting first impulse with Air impulse (in order to Ground strike with all airplanes that throw two dices due to surprise impulse)?
Then I could use the HQ to organize air units (at half cost because of air impulse).

The only problem is that I can't use O-chit on the same impulse to organize (again) all the HQ, right? In the beginning of the impulse I can't use this option as the HQ are all organized at the start.

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Post #: 13

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/18/2015 7:17:02 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
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From: Canada
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Yes, you cannot double dip.

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Post #: 14

RE: Barbarossa strategies - 5/18/2015 5:59:17 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

What about starting first impulse with Air impulse (in order to Ground strike with all airplanes that throw two dices due to surprise impulse)?
Then I could use the HQ to organize air units (at half cost because of air impulse).

The only problem is that I can't use O-chit on the same impulse to organize (again) all the HQ, right? In the beginning of the impulse I can't use this option as the HQ are all organized at the start.

It all depends on the setup by the USSR. Has he got double stacks with gaps in between? Or has he a spread out defense with one unit a hex? Where are the Russian HQ's. Germany has to setup it's units with the possible attacks already in mind. Concentrate on one area (North or South).

In the surprise impulse, I like to use planes for ground support (since a Stuka gives you 10 ground factors which is usually a whole odds shift as a certainty). Ground strikes still will mean that you have to depend on the die. Of course, if the USSR setup is such, that you can put a whole stack out of supply by attacking adjacent weaker stacks and you can do so without using your planes with a good chance of success, that's of course something to think about. However, if you would play against me as the USSR, I would make sure you only get about the same odds in any hex you are attacking in the surprise impulse...

Personally, I would use the offensive chit in the second turn of this short game. That's a long summer turn and there it is invaluable to reorganise the German HQ's, especially when you need to use those HQ's for HQ support in attacks to crack the frontlines.

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Peter

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Post #: 15