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Tank Production - Japan - 8/16/2016 9:40:49 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
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Status: offline 		After years away from playing Japan, I'm back at it vs Gen Patton in RHS mod. It is a different beast than DBB based mods which I've been playing as Allies for year. We just got to Feb 1st '42. I expanded Vehicle factories to 250 and the Dutch airframe factories were just captured, so its up to 270 now. However, I don't seem to be able to generate any surplus and Tracker is telling me I need over 400 Type 1 Medium Tanks to fill out my three tank divisions and multiple tank brigades TO&E. Every turn Tracker tells me I'm "critical" in this area (cannot get above 50). What steps do I need to do to get some tanks?!? Help your fellow economics minister.

Thanks in advance!

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/16/2016 9:47:44 PM   
SheperdN7


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Status: offline 		Type 1 medium tanks? Don't those come out in 06/42? Until then I believe you're stuck with the type 97, which is the upgrade to the type 89A tank ( which is awful)

How many Vehicle Points are in the pool? Open the industry tab and post a screenshot please and thank you, also post a screenshot of your troop pools.

I would also recommend expanding your vehicle factories a little more as you will need the extra points for late-war replacements and upgrades, tank losses for IJA skyrocket when the allies get their upgraded infantry squads with their higher A/Arm values.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/17/2016 4:07:25 AM   
Lokasenna


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Status: offline 		In the short run, you can turn on stockpiling of Motorized Support - that uses vehicle points. However, it's normal for vehicle points to be low for much of the early war. Very normal. I'm in February in my newest game and not yet above 1000 (which is the threshold for "Critical"). Gotten close a few times, but then of course a few units arrive...

You may need to expand vehicle production further, far beyond 270, if the tank units in for you in this mod are higher than in stock (which is my reference point).

Another thing - look on the LCU Production set, then the chart for Vehicle points. Look at your trend lines. That will tell you if you simply need to budget now, or if you need to expand. FWIW, I shoot for a projected 100K surplus over all my LCU arrival needs under the assumption that this will be enough for replacements throughout the war.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/17/2016 9:21:02 AM   
moonraker65


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Status: offline 		Type 97 Chi Ha still worse than anything the Allies can field

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/17/2016 4:42:24 PM   
SheperdN7


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Status: offline 		I believe the upgraded version of the Chi-Ha was superior to Stuarts and could stand a chance against Shermans if used properly. The 47mm gun was the best AT gun Japan fielded in great numbers, and was capable of knocking out Shermans from medium-close range as long as the shell hit the side or rear armour.

The Japanese tanks are infantry support tanks and aren't really meant for any other role. They do a great job against Chinese troops and early war allied forces. After '42 you'll be hard pressed to have grand success with Imperial Armour.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/17/2016 4:48:15 PM   
Yaab


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https://ikazuchisen.wordpress.com/snlf-120-mm-naval-short-gun-shinhoto-chi-ha/

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/17/2016 4:52:32 PM   
SheperdN7


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Status: offline 		Very cool Yaab! I always like the mobile heavy artillery pieces that both sides had. My personal favourite was the Churchill AVRE and its 300mm gun

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/17/2016 7:27:54 PM   
ny59giants


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Status: offline 		I was able to load another Tracker with the last few turns now that Sid has significantly slowed down the pace of updates. Loading Tracker I see that I'm going to be way short of Vehicle for 180 days, but not so much if I look 365 days out. So, I just expanded them again to 325 and will look at things again. I think this mod starts out with stock number of factories, but Japan gets three tank divisions at start and a fourth in mid-42. I'll try to post some Tracker screenshots in a few days.

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 8/17/2016 7:28:45 PM >

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/17/2016 8:24:41 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

Very cool Yaab! I always like the mobile heavy artillery pieces that both sides had. My personal favourite was the Churchill AVRE and its 300mm gun

If I am seeing the picture right, that one is not breach loading, but muzzle loading. Doesn't that make it a mortar?

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/18/2016 7:07:45 PM   
SheperdN7


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Status: offline 		Not neccessarily BBfanboy, some mortars are breach loading such as the Brandt 60mm (although that method is used for the direct fire role). I don't really know what makes a weapon a mortar, no rifling in the barrel?

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/18/2016 9:17:23 PM   
Panther Bait


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Status: offline 		The gun on the Churchill AVRE was considered a spigot mortar by the UK. I used to like taking one of those occasionally in Combat Mission. Good for clearing out infantry nests.

Mike

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/24/2016 5:59:32 PM   
SheperdN7


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Status: offline 		I'd agree with that statement Panther Bait. Ahhhhhh Combat Mission... Played it when I was 10 or 11 against dad, always lost except for the time when we did a 1v1 tank battle with 1 support unit on each side. Nothing like beating your father all because his Panther decided to engage a lone soldier with a bazooka instead of the Sherman M4A3E8 right behind him!

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/25/2016 2:21:25 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Chi-Ha with 120mm short gun

https://ikazuchisen.wordpress.com/snlf-120-mm-naval-short-gun-shinhoto-chi-ha/


Looks like one of the tanks from a game called Warhammer 40K...

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/25/2016 3:22:02 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		From an Allied perspective, I find Japanese tank units virtually impotent by mid 43. I don't know how much resources I would put into these units, it is important to have a few (especially in China) but they just die like flies. With no AA support they are vulnerable to air attack in the open and very brittle on the attack. Not saying they are not useful for some things but I question if it is worth the effort to rebuild all of them over and over-which is pretty much what you will be doing. The question becomes what does the Japanese player ramp up with the consideration that resources are not endless, and come 1944 start to become scarce?

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/25/2016 5:10:01 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

From an Allied perspective, I find Japanese tank units virtually impotent by mid 43. I don't know how much resources I would put into these units, it is important to have a few (especially in China) but they just die like flies. With no AA support they are vulnerable to air attack in the open and very brittle on the attack. Not saying they are not useful for some things but I question if it is worth the effort to rebuild all of them over and over-which is pretty much what you will be doing. The question becomes what does the Japanese player ramp up with the consideration that resources are not endless, and come 1944 start to become scarce?


My Guards Tank Division is holding the line against Bullwinkle in mid-44. Granted, it's in the jungle. This unit is not available unless Scen 2.

The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Tank Divisions don't seem to be quite as potent, but they still seem pretty good. The 4th Tank Division is understrength and doesn't arrive until 1944, though. Perhaps my perspective is skewed due to the experience levels of the units...

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/25/2016 7:33:42 PM   
Revthought


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Status: offline 		Let me again advocate for the Japanese Tiger.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/25/2016 8:31:52 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

From an Allied perspective, I find Japanese tank units virtually impotent by mid 43. I don't know how much resources I would put into these units, it is important to have a few (especially in China) but they just die like flies. With no AA support they are vulnerable to air attack in the open and very brittle on the attack. Not saying they are not useful for some things but I question if it is worth the effort to rebuild all of them over and over-which is pretty much what you will be doing. The question becomes what does the Japanese player ramp up with the consideration that resources are not endless, and come 1944 start to become scarce?


My Guards Tank Division is holding the line against Bullwinkle in mid-44. Granted, it's in the jungle. This unit is not available unless Scen 2.

The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Tank Divisions don't seem to be quite as potent, but they still seem pretty good. The 4th Tank Division is understrength and doesn't arrive until 1944, though. Perhaps my perspective is skewed due to the experience levels of the units...


Well, they are in the jungle plus they are Granted. Wait until they get Shermaned...

< Message edited by Yaab -- 8/25/2016 9:07:52 PM >

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/26/2016 3:58:44 AM   
Lokasenna


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Status: offline 		Aren't Shermans available beginning in 12/42? I know the unit's TOE has to have them also, but they ARE around in some units prior to June 1944...

Plus, in Burma they're fighting Commonwealth and Indian units with their 75 anti-hard rating. They're performing admirably.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/26/2016 11:33:43 AM   
oaltinyay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

The gun on the Churchill AVRE was considered a spigot mortar by the UK. I used to like taking one of those occasionally in Combat Mission. Good for clearing out infantry nests.

Mike


Seriously good game it was. spent a decade on it and before switching to this ...this ...WITP:AE singularity...

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/26/2016 11:36:26 AM   
oaltinyay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

I'd agree with that statement Panther Bait. Ahhhhhh Combat Mission... Played it when I was 10 or 11 against dad, always lost except for the time when we did a 1v1 tank battle with 1 support unit on each side. Nothing like beating your father all because his Panther decided to engage a lone soldier with a bazooka instead of the Sherman M4A3E8 right behind him!


maybe he was giving u break :) besides M4A4e8 wont make any self respecting panther bar a lucky hit ( bounce from turrent on to drivers head angle ) from almost all ranges. 76/52 is not for engaging directly with normal AP Rounds.



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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/26/2016 11:45:45 AM   
oaltinyay

 

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Status: offline 		Totally agree, I'm pumping them into the PI now ( it's late 43 and Derek has taken a huge gamble ) and they die like flies.

However they did overran most of Australia in early war.

I had more luck with mobile infatry units but marginally more so. They have a wee bit more staying power.

Maybe next RA features a land unit mod where IJA decides to produce licensed copies of Panzer IIIJ-L-N-M and IV G & H, with some Marder like TD units. Now that'll be interesting.

...actually I'm playing as japanese in RA and only thing that I can not manage is that land offensive because when IJA comes up against a decently armored opponent it stops in its tracks.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/26/2016 8:25:01 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Status: offline 		250 veh is already quite high imho.... also what Dutch airframe factories are there to capture and what have air facs to do with veh facs ?

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/27/2016 2:49:37 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

also what Dutch airframe factories are there to capture and what have air facs to do with veh facs ?


Its a mod or player designed scenario I believe. Although in the game captured air facs become veh facs IIRC.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/27/2016 7:21:53 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

250 veh is already quite high imho....


It's barely high enough for Scenario 2, and this seems to be a slightly bulked up mod compared to that - at least in terms of armor and it being around much earlier than in even scen 2. The 250 he already has may very well not be enough, as evidenced by his Tracker chart showing him to be behind for the next...what was it, year?

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/27/2016 2:34:47 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Aren't Shermans available beginning in 12/42? I know the unit's TOE has to have them also, but they ARE around in some units prior to June 1944...

Plus, in Burma they're fighting Commonwealth and Indian units with their 75 anti-hard rating. They're performing admirably.


Well in good defensive terrain they are strong enough but then again, are they really any better than a comparable infantry unit in the same place? Early war yes but I think Allied squad AT values negate much of their staying power from 1943 on. Shermans come in around 12/42 at 24 a month so it will take you a good half year to fill out your units.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 8/27/2016 11:05:43 PM >

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/27/2016 2:47:15 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Status: offline 		The tank units have two advantages, especially in the Japanese army

- They are mobile: This means that under the right circumstances they can act as a firebrigade...
- They are decent anti tank units, Japanese infantry anti tank is lacking....



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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/29/2016 6:08:47 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

The tank units have two advantages, especially in the Japanese army

- They are mobile: This means that under the right circumstances they can act as a firebrigade...
- They are decent anti tank units, Japanese infantry anti tank is lacking....




The second point I think is more important, although thus far I think I've mostly been fighting infantry with mine.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/29/2016 5:05:54 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

The tank units have two advantages, especially in the Japanese army

- They are mobile: This means that under the right circumstances they can act as a firebrigade...
- They are decent anti tank units, Japanese infantry anti tank is lacking....




The second point I think is more important, although thus far I think I've mostly been fighting infantry with mine.


Just barely decent but I don't know how much resources tanks cost over Japanese infantry. I don't know Japanese production costs.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/29/2016 5:32:17 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

The tank units have two advantages, especially in the Japanese army

- They are mobile: This means that under the right circumstances they can act as a firebrigade...
- They are decent anti tank units, Japanese infantry anti tank is lacking....




The second point I think is more important, although thus far I think I've mostly been fighting infantry with mine.


Just barely decent but I don't know how much resources tanks cost over Japanese infantry. I don't know Japanese production costs.


Well, just off of load cost... Type 1 tanks are load 11, and 1943 IJA squads are load 17. So without checking the specifics, I would assume the squads are actually more expensive. It's kind of apples/oranges though.

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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/29/2016 6:15:13 PM   
US87891

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Well, just off of load cost... Type 1 tanks are load 11, and 1943 IJA squads are load 17. So without checking the specifics, I would assume the squads are actually more expensive. It's kind of apples/oranges though.

Tanks and vehicles and such have an actual load cost which is a multiple of their load cost in the database.

Matt

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