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Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 8:33:12 PM   
Zoetermeer

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		As the Allied player, I'm left wondering why I should even bother repairing my damaged battleships after Dec. 7. I don't really see what they are useful for without air cover anyway -- other than as shore-bombardment support.

I came through the first few days of the Japanese onslaught with quite a few of my more powerful surface ships intact, but I don't really know how to make them useful in these early days when putting them to sea is just asking for certain death from the air.
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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 8:40:29 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		You don't use them in the early days.

At least not much.

Their forte is shore bombardment and they are great to have around when you start your island hopping campaign.

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 8:41:32 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The Dec 7 attack has a high ratio of torpedoes and 800 kg bombs used by Japs. Once your BBs hit the open seas, you will see Japanese 250 kg bombs bouncing off your battleships' armor. To war!

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 8:46:31 PM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
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< Message edited by BillBrown -- 10/1/2016 12:23:36 AM >

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 8:46:40 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline 		Well, I'd say Battleships are pretty damn good at kicking ass . . . as long as there are no planes within ~250 miles or so . . .

If I have a choice between say:
(A)
9 DD (with ASW capability)
5 CLAA

vs.
(B)(i)
1 BB (with sufficient speed and decent AA)
2 DD (with ASW capability)
2 CLAA

AND followed by
(B)(ii)
4 DD (with ASW and good torpedos)

I will take (B)(i)(ii)

In fact, I think I'd probably even take (B)(i) over (A) _in general_.

If all the vessels in (A) are relatively fast (lets say all have speed >32 knots or so) then yeah, (A) has certain very useful applications . . . such as following (B)(i) and helping the Battleship and his little buddies to kick ass.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 9/30/2016 8:49:15 PM >

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The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 9:14:03 PM   
Zorch

 

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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Well, I'd say Battleships are pretty damn good at kicking ass . . . as long as there are no planes within ~250 miles or so . . .

If I have a choice between say:
(A)
9 DD (with ASW capability)
5 CLAA

vs.
(B)(i)
1 BB (with sufficient speed and decent AA)
2 DD (with ASW capability)
2 CLAA

AND followed by
(B)(ii)
4 DD (with ASW and good torpedos)

I will take (B)(i)(ii)

In fact, I think I'd probably even take (B)(i) over (A) _in general_.

If all the vessels in (A) are relatively fast (lets say all have speed >32 knots or so) then yeah, (A) has certain very useful applications . . . such as following (B)(i) and helping the Battleship and his little buddies to kick ass.

The BBs also tend to soak up a lot of fuel. This is why Nimitz didn't send any old BBs to the Solomons.

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 10:06:50 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		One aspect is to use the BBs where weather and bases limit the available air, like around Alaska. Here I had one BB, the California defeat two Japanese BBs... not sure how, but she DID do it and walked (sailed) away with only moderate damage! They can be tough old birds!!!

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 11:01:30 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		I've always found that in an area that you have local air supremacy , a couple of old BB's make an excellent "point defense" for bases that your opponent likes to bombard. They are also a wonderful surprise for a Japanese player who is "raider happy" , against AMC's , CL's and even a CA. If they are just "stooging around" a port or a "choke point" they don't use up much fuel either.

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 11:35:15 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Battleship useful at all? Well, you could always use the game board to store Q-Tips or toothpicks.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 9
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 11:47:05 PM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
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< Message edited by BillBrown -- 10/1/2016 12:24:00 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 9/30/2016 11:53:09 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

All I can say is be careful about having your slow BBs fight LL equiped IJN DDs. The DDs usually win.

Take a look at Onime and my AAR. I just took on a large TF Of LL equipped warships. They didn't win. Not even close. Train your ships, upgrade them and carefully hand select your captains and TF commander and you'll do much better than you might think.

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 12:04:45 AM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		No no, they are not usefull. Just drive them straight into Tokyo bay.

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Post #: 12
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 12:15:21 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

All I can say is be careful about having your slow BBs fight LL equiped IJN DDs. The DDs usually win.


Which is the reason IRL that the light cruiser class existed in the first place. Their role with small calibre high and rate of fire guns was keep the the torpedo armed destroyers at arm length from the main battle line.

The game is designed to encourage the use of historical tactics....

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Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 12:24:02 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		AHHHH!!! as us landlubber grunts used to sing... "She had a pair of hips like two battleships".

Besides shore bombardment, they are good to have nearby in case of a toe-to-toe fight, for their punching power and for everyone else to hide behind.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 10/1/2016 12:49:14 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 12:24:56 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

All I can say is be careful about having your slow BBs fight LL equiped IJN DDs. The DDs usually win.


Which is the reason IRL that the light cruiser class existed in the first place. Their role with small calibre high and rate of fire guns was keep the the torpedo armed destroyers at arm length from the main battle line.

The game is designed to encourage the use of historical tactics....

Absolutely! Brooklyn class CL's are terrific DD killers! Keep you TF's comparable. BB's should be sister ships, CL's should be sisters , and DD's should be , if possible sisters. I didn't have Fletchers , so I made due with Sim's class. And I didn't have Porters in the area , or I'd have used them too. The answer to the long lance , is the answer to any surface weapon system...training , leaders and a planned response. In this case, as many 5" guns as I could come up with. I was quite surprised that Spruance beat Tanaka. But it can be done with care and planning.

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Post #: 15
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 12:27:32 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		And of course , if speed is NOT a requirement, they make tremendous protection for your CV's as bomb and torpedo magnets. In short, I'd say USN old BB's are good "close to home" ships. I wouldn't send them too far from a decent size port.

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Post #: 16
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 12:28:20 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

No no, they are not usefull. Just drive them straight into Tokyo bay.

Eventually. When they can come with lots, and lots of their friends.

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 17
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 1:28:09 AM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

No no, they are not usefull. Just drive them straight into Tokyo bay.

Eventually. When they can come with lots, and lots of their friends.

“We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in China, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the paddies and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall always do a Banzai charge, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the Japanese Fleet, would carry on the struggle.

< Message edited by Gräfin Zeppelin -- 10/1/2016 1:31:07 AM >

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 4:17:12 AM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline 		Well, they were useful in War Plan Orange anyway . . .

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 19
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 4:29:56 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Some basic rules for old Allied BBs

1. They have little value in 1942 but gain in value each year thereafter. Repair them, upgrade them and get their AA values up. Then avoid using them for a year.
2. They have terrible night combat experience. Don't think about using them in surface fights until late 43 when Allied ships get a gunnery boost. They are slow and are "always" long lance bait.
3. Don't mix them with fast ships-they slow everything else down and make them all that more vulnerable. Of course, you will never mix them with modern BBs.
4. If you are going to use them at night. Only do so when moonlight is near 100%. But then again, you are not going to use them at night. (Until later)
5. Don't send them to the South Pacific in early 1942. (You will only get them sunk). They are fuel hogs and you will be short of fuel.
6. They are excellent escorts for CVE task forces. (Same speed and will soak up bombs that can kill a CVE)
7. They are excellent additions to amphibious TFs. They fire counter battery and will attract most all shore gun fire to themselves and usually suffer little harm. They also soak up bombs-see number 6.
8. It is not in the rules and the date is unknown but JWE mentioned some time back that American ships get a gunnery boost to reflect the more modern fire control systems. This happens in late 43 or 1/44. Once that happens they can pretty much go head to head with any Japanese ship save the two super ships.

I like to avoid BB vs BB combat. Yeah, it is fun but torpedoes are best for sinking BBs. Mines as well will put them in the shipyard. A heavily damaged BB is out of the war for a year.

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 5:35:12 AM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		These are all very good suggestions albeit very conservative. If you find yourself flush with old BBs in '42 I wouldn't hesitate to commit them to forward positions. The Allies can afford to lose a few for a good purpose. The cardinal over-riding caution is to make sure no KB is around. I find them particularly useful in defence of Caledonia and Suva...you can usually give them a measure of CAP. I use my BBs to bombard whenever I can find a target. If you aren't using them, my attitude is you are wasting them!! At he very least a wise player will show their faces in a few key areas for deterrence if for no other reason. In one PBEM in March '42

I snuck the Brit Rs back into Singapore for 2 turns to bombard the besiegers. The siege failed...yes, they soaked up a few torpedoes getting away but they did escape. I have twice used the old girls to bombard northern Japan in early '42. They were never shot at.

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 6:54:33 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		In the game, a loss of an old BB is not a big thing - a slow, gas-guzzler with a big VP tag is lost. But in the RL, there is also a 3,000 crew. To match the human cost of such loss, you would have to lose 30 WWII USN submarines. Makes you think twice before you commit a BB to a scouting mission into the unknown.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/1/2016 6:59:43 AM >

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 12:43:06 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		This line of thinking can get you in trouble with aggressive IJ player who recognizes pixels for what they are........I am one of those.

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Post #: 23
RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 12:48:33 PM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		Smoking is bad for you!

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RE: Battleships Useful At All? - 10/1/2016 4:58:48 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

This line of thinking can get you in trouble with aggressive IJ player who recognizes pixels for what they are........I am one of those.


Agree. A good Japanese player who knows how to use his surface ships will eat old Allied BBs for lunch. I fight the Japanese on the surface with CAs and DDs. Many times in a night engagement your BBs will not even fire. As for bombardments in 1942. I can hardly think of a bombardment target that is worth the loss of a BB.

Likewise there are ways to deal with a Japanese player who relies too much on his BBs.

While potentially useful there is a great risk to using British BBs that is critically more important than losing one. If you take severe damage close to the withdrawal date. (We can be talking three months or more) Then you face the potential loss of a massive number of PPs. Of course, there is the death ride gambit but who really likes to do that?

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