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The first turn debacle

 
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The first turn debacle - 11/24/2016 2:05:00 AM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		I've seen while looking at this forum and various threads and one thing I've noticed is that a lot of players talk about how the 1st turn will make or break an Axis victory. I've played the grand campaign into early '42 and I've come nowhere close to victory as the Germans but I attribute that more so to my skill than the first turn. Is the first turn really the make or break moment for a Axis player? If so that's really disappointing but I'd rather know than not know.

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Current Games:

WitP:AE PBEM against Greg (Late '44)
AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner
Post #: 1
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/24/2016 2:50:14 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		1st turn, and then how you manage your rail network/fuel supply situation.

The Axis 1st turn needs to be perfect to limit the Soviet players options the first 4 turns of the game. By turn 4 the Germans have made the easiest gains and its more about how the German player manages logistics and if either player makes a major mistake.

For the Germans to have a chance to win the German play needs to be very good, or the soviet play very bad however you want to look at it. From all the current games going on the newest patches skilled German players are constantly doing as good or better/far better than historical in 1941. Which is allowing 1942 to be make or break for Soviet play either regaining the game or losing. You could say the current patches have probably given the German side the best chance of winning compared to older versions if the German player knows the 1st turn and the logistics system well.

(in reply to SheperdN7)
Post #: 2
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/24/2016 4:56:17 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		In a human vs. human game, yeah, it has to be at least 99% efficient and 'by the book.'
The better your Soviet opponent, the more critical the efficiency factor.

Against the AI, this is not the case.

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Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 3
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/24/2016 6:12:17 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		In human vs human games one could argue that every German turn must be perfect to give them a chance of winning decisively. No wasted moves, no wasted attacks, optimal logistics, leader and assignment management.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 4
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/24/2016 2:39:26 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		All good Axis players produce good first turns, but it doesn't necessarily follow that all good first turns are produced by good players. An Axis victory is made from a combination of good tactics and good strategy consistantly applied over the course of many turns.

Good Axis players have contingency plans in case things go wrong on turn one to avoid it turning into a debacle.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 11/24/2016 2:42:02 PM >

(in reply to SheperdN7)
Post #: 5
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/25/2016 1:14:39 AM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		Alrighty, I must say I feel a lot better now with these answers, I understand completely that to have complete Axis victory one must be very very good at what they are doing and the first turn definitely adds to that but I'm glad to see at least from what I am reading that its possible to still recover from a bad opening turn.

_____________________________

Current Games:

WitP:AE PBEM against Greg (Late '44)
AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 6
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/25/2016 4:15:09 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		I dont think you can recover from a bad 1st axis turn unless the soviet player makes mistakes, and most likely the soviet mistakes would have to be big ones.

If the Axis opening turn is bad the extra forces the soviet player can save can easily delay the German advance to the point of the game being defacto decided.

(in reply to SheperdN7)
Post #: 7
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/25/2016 7:34:14 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		The problem to determine this in a scientific way is that a bad german first turn is often an indication of a novice german player. So the next 20 turn could be not very good too.





< Message edited by Stelteck -- 11/25/2016 7:35:16 AM >

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 8
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/25/2016 7:47:58 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

Alrighty, I must say I feel a lot better now with these answers, I understand completely that to have complete Axis victory one must be very very good at what they are doing and the first turn definitely adds to that but I'm glad to see at least from what I am reading that its possible to still recover from a bad opening turn.


It shouldn't be really bad, that would certainly hurt the Axis. But it doesn't have to be power-gamer-level optimized.

(in reply to SheperdN7)
Post #: 9
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/25/2016 1:49:07 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Stelteck- the problem with saying its all on Axis play for the next 20 turns is false as well. If the Axis opener is bad- IE allows more soviet units to escape pockets than normal- either via not getting good encirclements or routing to many---the Soviet player, play becomes more the factor. As the Soviet player then has more assets to confound even a good Axis player thus my comment about the game being over short of bad play on the Soviet players part no matter really how good the axis player is.

As those extra units then mean more attacks and MP lost for the German player in the early game each turn, as well the Soviet player can then in effect get an army they can throw away with no real ill effects towards holding Moscow later in 1941...this throw away army can in effect buy a couple extra turns for the Soviets in delayed German supply/movement. Its why the opening pockets and play on T1 are extremely critical for Axis players, and really in effect determine almost the entire game. If you mess them up you win/lose the game in June 1941.

As by 1942 Soviet industry has been moved and its just a matter of the Soviet player not losing to many units that they cant re-gain the initiative at the end of 1942+

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 10
RE: The first turn debacle - 11/27/2016 7:27:18 PM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		2 days ago I started a new game with the primary goal of destroying the Red Army, absolutely no political or economic goals. All I have to say is WOW now I can see why the first turn is so damn important, not just for encircling a few pockets early but for setting up your panzers for the next turn. Having a blast with this game now!!!

_____________________________

Current Games:

WitP:AE PBEM against Greg (Late '44)
AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 11
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