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carpet bombing - 12/5/2018 8:50:33 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Have a look at this picture, is very odd indeed, isn't it?
in the left side there's nothing, no general, no units shown.
but the result is the route of the 10th panzer division with the destruction of every single squad/device (only 11 support squad survived).
How could Patton achieve this stunning result without loosing a single man?

Because this is just the last of 44 (!!) actions in the hex in the same turn.
the attack was preceeded by 40 allied carpet bombing missions using hundreds of planes that destroyed /damaged /disrupted everything in 10th panzer.
Something similar to Cobra operation in Normandia I think.

The point is : what could I have done, as Axis player, to prevent or limit this?
I tried to set an air superiority mission with 340 fighters at the proper altitude,
almost all the enemy missions came without escorts, but only in a few cases the defenders, with 12 o 24 fighters managed to intercept.
So a complete failure in axis air defence.
Thanks for advices!







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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 12/5/2018 8:52:47 PM >

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/7/2018 10:39:14 PM   
Zebtucker12


Posts: 117
Joined: 1/8/2017
Status: offline 		This is a good question that deservs an answer is there anyway to fully protect yourself from being "cobrad"

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 1:26:15 AM   
John B.


Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		There should be a limit on the number of times heavy bomber units can be used for COBRA style ground attacks (since it was used there and then at Caen and that's about it as I recall being too lazy to look it up). The airforce bigwigs were loath to be mere tactical bombers and fought every attempt to use them as such.

And, there should be a chance of some friendly casualties as that's what happened with COBRA. But, on the whole I think it's the downside of fighting against total air superiority. :)

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 12:04:17 PM   
Zebtucker12


Posts: 117
Joined: 1/8/2017
Status: offline 		Maybe make Allies pay admin for using their heavybombers to simply bomb non strategic targets? would force the allied player to play more historical. But i guess it would be really hard to implement.

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 1:05:19 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		Given the scenario, this is not 'carpet bombing' in the sense of using B-17s/Lancasters in a ground attack role. The Allies have only a few (can't remember the exact OOB), its a sustained conventional ground attack using FBs and I'd guess B-24/25s.

In the campaign games there are good reasons not to do sustained ground attacks with your heavy bombers. Basically its inefficient, you can do more damage, turn after turn by going for the German factories and rail nets.

Last time I played this scenario, I found the allied airforce quite brittle. So yes, you can do the attacks shown but my guess is the Allied player is now sitting on a pile of low morale and fatigued bombers. Is it a good trade off against lower level, more sustainable usage? No idea, but it is a trade off.

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 3:09:03 PM   
Zebtucker12


Posts: 117
Joined: 1/8/2017
Status: offline 		Well it is if it leads to constant cobra type breakouts where your opponent tought his defences where unbreakble. Also it seems heavy bombers destroy the units its targeting supply level more than Fb does unless im wrong?

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 3:58:50 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		It was a series of bombing raids in which every kind of allied planes took part: FBs , mid bombers and heavy bombers.
Here is one of the most devastating attacks, attack nr.4: FBs very low, at 1000 feet
Result :
-18 squads destroyed
- 8 squads damaged
-59 squads disrupted

no flak losses, one plane lost operation





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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 4:11:15 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
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From: Italy
Status: offline 		Here is an example with heavies, attack nr.9:
62 B-17s bombed from 15.000 feet but just managed to disrupt 15 squads

I believe that if my opponent had used heavies bombers at low altitude he could have easily destroyed the Axis whole army in a few turns.
In this scenery Axis flak is very scarce and most stuck in towns, so ground troops are very expoosed to air attacks.

At the end of the whole "treatment" the 10th panzer div was so shocked (max fatigue, zero morale I suppose) that its combat value was zero and so everthing left was destroyed with the US assault








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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 4:34:15 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Here was my defence air superiority air directive,
a rectangle centered on the 10th panzer div at 7000 feet, 340 fighters, only enemy air phase.
it managed to intercept enemy bombers approaching 40 times, but with low numbers of axis fighters every time.
Anyway 63 enemy bombers/FBs downed, 8 LW FB lost.
Maybe I should have downsized the rectangle. Probably one problem was the flak, absent.
But the main problem is I shouldn't have sent a tired 10th pz div in that hex, a clear hex with no forts.







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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 4:47:42 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

It was a series of bombing raids in which every kind of allied planes took part: FBs , mid bombers and heavy bombers.
Here is one of the most devastating attacks, attack nr.4: FBs very low, at 1000 feet
Result :
-18 squads destroyed
- 8 squads damaged
-59 squads disrupted

no flak losses, one plane lost operation


...


well ... not quite.

Thats a good mission but with trade offs. 1000' dips below most flak so you escape all but the lightest units - which is what your side of the combat shows.

What you don't see is operational losses/damage (I think you should be able to see this but its a consequence of game design). I've used this trick, both in WiTW and in testing WiTE2 (Soviet Il-2s and UV-2s are just built for it) and what you get is a lot of operational losses/damage. So the unit has low morale and needs time to recover.

Because you are only seeing one part of the consequences (fair enough its what the game shows you), I suspect you are seeing this a cost-free 'I win' approach. Its not, its a costly, effective, tool for a very particular purpose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

Here is an example with heavies, attack nr.9:
62 B-17s bombed from 15.000 feet but just managed to disrupt 15 squads

I believe that if my opponent had used heavies bombers at low altitude he could have easily destroyed the Axis whole army in a few turns.
...


No, if the heavies go in too low, they simply crash. Try it with any of the scenarios, simply set up and run a test. He's used all his heavy bombers (so they are not flattening your ports which is where I'd have them) to disrupt 15 elements, 13 of which were busy cooking lunch and digging latrines at the time of the raid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

Here was my defence air superiority air directive,
a rectangle centered on the 10th panzer div at 7000 feet, 340 fighters, only enemy air phase.
it managed to intercept enemy bombers approaching 40 times, but with low numbers of axis fighters every time.
Anyway 63 enemy bombers/FBs downed, 8 LW FB lost.
Maybe I should have downsized the rectangle. Probably one problem was the flak, absent.
But the main problem is I shouldn't have sent a tired 10th pz div in that hex, a clear hex with no forts.

...






Congrats for setting up such a low interception level, using the default 15,000' and you'd have missed the Allies.

I can understand your frustration but you are not really seeing the price your opponent has just paid for this stunt. I've run it (as I say in both WiTW and in WiTE2 where the VVS has planes designed to do just this) and you get hammered in terms of operational losses = low morale = air units that cannot fly for a few turns.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 12/8/2018 4:48:34 PM >

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 5:37:44 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Thanks for explanations Loki,

After viewing again some old turns, I came to your same opinion, heavies are much better at doing strat bombing than bombing troops.
My ports were almost always intact and managed to flow supplies all along the campaign, no logistic problems for Axis helped to come to a great victory.
here is a strat bombing at low altitude, 1000 feet, by B-17 that didn't get a better result (but maybe we should consider that here terrain is mountain and there is a fort level two.
Just one doubt, are you sure heavies get many operational losses when flying low? here just one B-17 had an operational loss (the other 3 shown are blenheims).

PS I'm not frustrated, just learning; it was a very nice match against my opponent, a lot iof fun indeed!




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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 5:51:44 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Here is a auto generated patrol mission in the previous turn that managed to put together 128 axis FBs and down 75 (!!) enemy planes, more than all downed by my air superiority missions put together.
this and other CAP mmissions were organized for Fliegerfuerer Afrika HQ by AI.
That's why I suspect I made something wrong in my air superiority directive (Flieger Corps Tunis HQ with more planes); they flew too piecemeal...






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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 12/8/2018 5:55:32 PM >

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/8/2018 9:17:17 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		We like to see a save just before you execute the air combat with those air attacks on the Panzer Division. Please post it in the forum or email it to 2by3@2by3games.com if you have it (or can create a similar situation). It does look like a lot of damage was done, more than should have been.

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/9/2018 10:17:34 AM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We like to see a save just before you execute the air combat with those air attacks on the Panzer Division. Please post it in the forum or email it to 2by3@2by3games.com if you have it (or can create a similar situation). It does look like a lot of damage was done, more than should have been.


I've asked my opponent if he has a save; I was on the receiving side of the air attack.
Waiting for the answer.
Thanks

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/9/2018 10:36:15 AM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Anyway Joel here is the situation of the 10th panzer after moving and before all the allied attacks.
As you can see it's already in a bad shape BEFORE the hammering.
It's like an empty shell, full of support squads (347 ready) and only 67 "combat" squads (including artillery);
more they were all very tired because of previous fightings and moving in ZOC

So I don't think 40 air bombing missions made too much damage,
when Patton attacked it simply had zero combat value left.

the problem maybe, as I already said, could be that too many support squads not needed are produced as replacements and too few combat squads.
We spoke about it here:
no german production for Afrika EDIT: I just added final production values to that thread




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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 12/9/2018 11:13:06 AM >

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/9/2018 3:54:18 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I'm almost sure my opponent hasn't the save,
I recreated a similar situation.

The 15th panzer division was depleted after the air bombing but didn't relocate.
And the following ground allied attack routed the unit and destroyed almost everything remained
There's indeed something wrong, maybe unit should relocate just after bombing.

A problem in this scenery is that all german units start almost depleted - and remain that way all the campaign - so often an air bombing is enough to make them depleted and useless even if has some fighting power left.
Afrika Korps divisions were historically reformed as kampfgruppe after el Alamein.

I've sent the save before air bombing to 2by3 email, please tell me if you've received it
thanks





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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 12/9/2018 4:07:55 PM >

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/11/2018 7:39:37 AM   
LiquidSky


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In general you should attach a light and heavy flak battalion to every mechanized German division. And you should try to attach a mixed flak battalion to every infantry division. You probably won't have enough mixed for the infantry, although you should have enough for areas of importance.

This is pretty much the best defence you can muster...the continuous attrition to his airforce will keep his morale low and prevent him from flying all the time.

In areas where you expect large amounts of interdiction you can make a 'flak trap'. Move a Flak regiment (or all those RR-Flak units) and pile them in one town in the area. When the computer calculates where to fly the interdiction, they will try and 'fill in the gaps' and there will be a very big gap in and adjacent to the the 'flak trap' Don't go too crazy as you need admin points to move the non-RR units out when the enemy gets too close...
(EDIT: An HQ with a bunch of Flak in it will work as well)

You should never ever fly air superiority as a form of defence. Air superiority is an attack mission....and it highly favours the side that can afford losses...and sadly, that isn't the Axis. Just move your fighters into bases near by and let them sit. They will do their job and try and shoot down anything that flies near them....but the Allies will probably have air superiority of their own and be trading their fighters for yours. And they have more fighters then you have planes in the entire Luftwaffe.



< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 12/11/2018 7:40:44 AM >

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/11/2018 3:19:37 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		If anyone can send me a save where I can execute a bunch of ground attack missions and see the ground unit eventually reduced to dust, please do. It does look like all that was left was support squads. Even so, it's possible this is too much in the way of losses. The unit eventually went depleted and had no combat strength. At that point, ideally it would warp away from the enemy unit so it could never be attacked. Although I don't think we do a check for depleted units next to enemy units during the air phase.

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/11/2018 4:36:18 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

If anyone can send me a save where I can execute a bunch of ground attack missions and see the ground unit eventually reduced to dust, please do. It does look like all that was left was support squads. Even so, it's possible this is too much in the way of losses. The unit eventually went depleted and had no combat strength. At that point, ideally it would warp away from the enemy unit so it could never be attacked. Although I don't think we do a check for depleted units next to enemy units during the air phase.


Hi Joel, this is the save just before air attack, related to post #15. it's a .txt file you just have to rename it as .sav


Edit: it's like you supposed, unit was depleted after the heavy air bombings but didn't relocate; the following ground attack destroyed almost everything left.

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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 12/11/2018 4:40:53 PM >

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RE: carpet bombing - 12/11/2018 4:44:09 PM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


In general you should attach a light and heavy flak battalion to every mechanized German division. And you should try to attach a mixed flak battalion to every infantry division. You probably won't have enough mixed for the infantry, although you should have enough for areas of importance.

This is pretty much the best defence you can muster...the continuous attrition to his airforce will keep his morale low and prevent him from flying all the time.

In areas where you expect large amounts of interdiction you can make a 'flak trap'. Move a Flak regiment (or all those RR-Flak units) and pile them in one town in the area. When the computer calculates where to fly the interdiction, they will try and 'fill in the gaps' and there will be a very big gap in and adjacent to the the 'flak trap' Don't go too crazy as you need admin points to move the non-RR units out when the enemy gets too close...
(EDIT: An HQ with a bunch of Flak in it will work as well)

You should never ever fly air superiority as a form of defence. Air superiority is an attack mission....and it highly favours the side that can afford losses...and sadly, that isn't the Axis. Just move your fighters into bases near by and let them sit. They will do their job and try and shoot down anything that flies near them....but the Allies will probably have air superiority of their own and be trading their fighters for yours. And they have more fighters then you have planes in the entire Luftwaffe.




thanks for useful advices


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RE: carpet bombing - 12/12/2018 10:41:47 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I got the saves and tried it myself. After all the bombing, some 4500 sorties, the panzer division had actually lost 1100 men destroyed and still had 10200 men, although a large number of elements were damaged. The unit was depleted at the end of it. The losses at that point are not terribly off. In my tests, I then bounced the unit and also tried attacking it. I got a variety of results with between a few hundred and a few thousand losses. I'm not sure why in the case in Tunisia the attack caused the loss of all 10000 men. The unit should rout away when it is depleted while next to an enemy unit, but I'm not sure how hard it will be to get that to happen. The reality is that the divisions in both cases were very weak in combat elements, so most of what is being destroyed after the air strikes are the support elements. In the case in the save, the unit was very weak in combat elements, so the air support could damage or destroy enough elements to make it go depleted. I'd have to see a case against a strong unit to see if the air strikes are doing too much damage. Thanks for the saves.

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