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OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/22/2017 10:01:12 AM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline 		https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_Ichi_convoy#cite_note-27

"the escort force was the newly established 6th Escort Convoy Command and included Kajioka's flagship, the coal burning minelayer Shirataka, as well as destroyers Asakaze, Shiratsuyu and Fujinami, frigate Kurahashi, ocean escort ships ('kaibokan') CD-20 and CD-22, minesweeper W-2, subchasers CH-37 and CH-38 and gunboats Uji, Ataka and Tama Maru No. 7.[17]"

"Japanese naval staff officers gathered in Manila in June to analyze the Take Ichi convoy. The officers believed that Japan's communication codes were secure and discussed alternative explanations for the convoy's detection. These explanations included the increase in radio signals at the time the convoy sailed being detected by Allied radio traffic analysts, a Japanese officer in Manila accidentally divulging information and Allied spies working on the Manila waterfront radioing messages about the convoy's composition and departure. The meeting concluded that Allied spies were responsible for the convoy's detection, and the Japanese military's codes were not changed.[27]"

Good bibliography as well.
Post #: 1
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/22/2017 2:46:03 PM   
Revthought


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From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


What was it with both Germany and Imperial Japan that made them believe, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that their naval codes just could not have been broken? I always found this historical artifact fascinating.

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Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 2
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/22/2017 6:02:10 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline 		The hand of G-d and the Divine Providence, only.

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Post #: 3
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/22/2017 6:57:16 PM   
Leandros


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Interesting story - with great repercussions! Tks for posting.

Fred

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River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 4
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/22/2017 7:35:46 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


What was it with both Germany and Imperial Japan that made them believe, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that their naval codes just could not have been broken? I always found this historical artifact fascinating.

Since their own people could not break test samples of code, they assumed the enemy could not do so. A common human failing to think that no one is better than you ...

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/23/2017 12:04:50 AM   
zuluhour


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Status: offline 		+1

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Post #: 6
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/23/2017 12:40:57 AM   
NigelKentarus


Posts: 207
Joined: 3/27/2015
From: OH, USN 20 yrs, & FL
Status: offline 		Hubris

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Post #: 7
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/23/2017 3:00:21 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		In addition, we all know that there were powerful incentives at work to discourage any creative thinking that might tend to show someone's boss was a f... up!! Look at the silly process and brainlessness that went into determining the US torpedoes were junk. Fixing something like this was much more difficult in the Axis political/economic system.

(in reply to NigelKentarus)
Post #: 8
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/23/2017 9:21:25 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In addition, we all know that there were powerful incentives at work to discourage any creative thinking that might tend to show someone's boss was a f... up!! Look at the silly process and brainlessness that went into determining the US torpedoes were junk. Fixing something like this was much more difficult in the Axis political/economic system.


Since you mention torpedo problems, I believe a couple of high-ranking German officers connected
with the torpedo production were actually court-martialed after the German submarines had
experienced their share during the Norwegian campaign in 1940. Not that it did much to remedy
the problem but there was a distinct response.

Fred

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to pontiouspilot)
Post #: 9
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/25/2017 3:17:02 PM   
Scholomancer

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 10/9/2016
Status: offline 		I know the British attempted to cover their Ultra program in the Mediterranean by arranging "chance" encounters with patrol aircraft, before moving in to attack with more significant forces. I imagine the US did much of the same.

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Post #: 10
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/25/2017 10:33:33 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		In 1940 the British let the city of Coventry get creamed one night even though they had perfect knowledge of a forthcoming Luftwaffe attack. They knew that any action they took would cue the Germans to the fact that their (the German's) codes were not secure and; given the state of nighttime defenses at the time; would do little to prevent civilian casualties anyway.

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Post #: 11
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/25/2017 10:48:48 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		From the article:

quote:

Decoded Japanese Army Water Transport Code messages also provided the Allies with the convoy's route, speed, daily noon positions and destination


If you are looking for something, ANYTHING on the ocean, you simply can not ask for more information than this.

I've read that every Japanese merchant ship was required by IJHQ regulations to report its noon position to whatever HQ it was serving in this compromised Army Water Transportation Code and further that this code was compromised pretty early on during the course of the war.

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 12
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 12:33:19 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

In 1940 the British let the city of Coventry get creamed one night even though they had perfect knowledge of a forthcoming Luftwaffe attack. They knew that any action they took would cue the Germans to the fact that their (the German's) codes were not secure and; given the state of nighttime defenses at the time; would do little to prevent civilian casualties anyway.


That exact twist on the story has been disputed:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-11486219

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 13
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 12:35:35 AM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scholomancer

I know the British attempted to cover their Ultra program in the Mediterranean by arranging "chance" encounters with patrol aircraft, before moving in to attack with more significant forces. I imagine the US did much of the same.


My impression is that the Americans were less secretive than the British on the use of Ultra.

Fred

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to Scholomancer)
Post #: 14
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 7:51:13 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

In 1940 the British let the city of Coventry get creamed one night even though they had perfect knowledge of a forthcoming Luftwaffe attack. They knew that any action they took would cue the Germans to the fact that their (the German's) codes were not secure and; given the state of nighttime defenses at the time; would do little to prevent civilian casualties anyway.


That exact twist on the story has been disputed:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-11486219

Fred

warspite1

Thank-you for the link Leandros.

quote:

In 1940 the British let the city of Coventry get creamed one night


How very eloquent....

I must confess I do find it amazing just how many people appear desperate to believe that leaders of democratic countries are homicidal loons on the Q.T. I mean Churchill and Coventry, Roosevelt and Pearl, Bush and 911



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 15
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 10:23:24 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

I must confess I do find it amazing just how many people appear desperate to believe that leaders of democratic countries are homicidal loons on the Q.T. I mean Churchill and Coventry, Roosevelt and Pearl, Bush and 911


If you're Hitler, Stalin, or Kim Jung Un you stand any such thinkers up against the wall for having such thoughts before they can express them.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 16
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 12:11:13 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

I must confess I do find it amazing just how many people appear desperate to believe that leaders of democratic countries are homicidal loons on the Q.T. I mean Churchill and Coventry, Roosevelt and Pearl, Bush and 911


If you're Hitler, Stalin, or Kim Jung Un you stand any such thinkers up against the wall for having such thoughts before they can express them.
warspite1

Why would Kim Jung Un shoot someone just because he thinks Winston Churchill knew about the raid on Coventry?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 17
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 12:48:00 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

I must confess I do find it amazing just how many people appear desperate to believe that leaders of democratic countries are homicidal loons on the Q.T. I mean Churchill and Coventry, Roosevelt and Pearl, Bush and 911


If you're Hitler, Stalin, or Kim Jung Un you stand any such thinkers up against the wall for having such thoughts before they can express them.
warspite1

Why would Kim Jung Un shoot someone just because he thinks Winston Churchill knew about the raid on Coventry?




Because the machine that turns people into lubricant is being repaired.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 18
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 2:55:56 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Good point






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/26/2017 2:57:40 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 19
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 3:09:03 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		....

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 20
RE: OT: Take Ichi Convoy - 2/26/2017 3:25:56 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Good point






I get it - his name is Phoo Yuk.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 21
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