Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Allied AI (but clueless :)

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Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Allied... - 8/20/2017 1:45:04 AM

Timotheus

Posts: 481
Joined: 12/13/2013
Status: offline

Hey all. I am doing OK versus a computer in scenario 033 (Andy's historical AI - not ironman, Japan only has historical forces and the script can only go so far).

I would like to try Japan vs a comp (maybe ironman allies scenario).

I do have some questions, because from what I see playing the Allies is "EZ mode" in this game :)

1) Which Japanese Task Forces can "teleport" the first turn? Are they marked somehow on the map or do I have to just know which one can?

When playing ahistorical first turn, where exactly can I place my Japanese fleets/convoys/transports/subs? Any limits? No limits?

2) How to best recon an enemy base that I want to invade? In my campaign vs AI I got quite a shock when an enemy base had 13,000 Japanese troops on it that I did not detect - and my disembarking troops packed up and went back (can't blame them, commander error :)

Thing is, how do I recce a base? Use airplanes, especially ones with cameras? Bomb from air? Do subs going into the base (to, say, mine) help? Naval bombardment?

3) Is there a nice spreadsheet which shows me on one page which Japanese airplanes use which engines?

4) Any video or text guide on exactly what to click on the Japanese engine production / R&D page and WHY to click it (like I said, Allies are "EZ mode" :)

Probably more questions incoming as I run into them.

I want to say that I DO have the basics down - how to organize convoys, how to do land war, just learned a few painful lessons on amphib invasions. But Japan is a totally different game in WITPAE.

Having said that, looking forward to landing in V-town in India, taking Pearl Harbour and occupying Sydney (try and stop me, Andy's AI

).

Cheers.

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Post #: 1

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/20/2017 4:05:08 AM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus
1) Which Japanese Task Forces can "teleport" the first turn? Are they marked somehow on the map or do I have to just know which one can?

When playing ahistorical first turn, where exactly can I place my Japanese fleets/convoys/transports/subs? Any limits? No limits?

In Scenario 1, the First turn Move bonus TF's are:

1 Kido Butai (*) 128 52
2 IJN tankers (*) 128 52
3 IJN cruisers (*) 90 97
4 Kuching Cbt TF (*) 69 63
5 Heavy Cover (*) 51 72
7 Singora Cbt TF (*) 69 63
8 IJN destroyers (*) 84 63
9 IJN destroyers (*) 104 57
10 IJN destroyers (*) 119 54
12 Vigan Cbt TF (*) 84 63
13 Legaspi Cbt TF (*) 90 97
14 Aparri Cbt TF (*) 84 65
17 IJN destroyers (*) 108 58
85 Kota Bahru Inv (*) 69 63
86 Bangkok Holding (*) 60 71
90 Batan Is. Inv (*) 84 65
91 Singora Invasion (* 69 63
92 Pattani Invasion (* 69 63
93 Chumphon Invn (*) 60 71
94 Nakhorn Invasion (* 60 71
95 Prachuab Invn (*) 60 71
96 Batan Is. Air (*) 84 65
97 Singora Invn II (*) 69 63
98 Singora Inv.III (*) 64 72
140 Midway Replenish 128 52
141 Midway Bombardment 128 52

Most of them are marked with a (*) in the name, but obviously 140 and 141 are not marked as having the first turn move bonus... If you provide me the link where you are getting your scenario files, I can load them into my scenario editor and give you a list. Meanwhile, the only way I know of to definitively get a list is to look through every task force in the scenario editor and look to see if "First Turn Movement Bonus" is checked.

The First turn move bonus allows a TF to move the equivalent of multiple turns of movement. I forget the number of turns... 10, 15 and 25 stick in my head, but I can't remember the exact number and a can't remember where it is documented. Note that you can modify the contents and mission of the TF, but if you ever disband the TF while entering turn 1, you lose the First turn move bonus. Also note that you can merge task forces into a First turn bonus as long as it merges within the first turn of movement of the TF with the bonus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus
2) How to best recon an enemy base that I want to invade? In my campaign vs AI I got quite a shock when an enemy base had 13,000 Japanese troops on it that I did not detect - and my disembarking troops packed up and went back (can't blame them, commander error :)

Thing is, how do I recce a base? Use airplanes, especially ones with cameras? Bomb from air? Do subs going into the base (to, say, mine) help? Naval bombardment?

Your information will improve as the detection level of the base and units in it improves. Review rulebook sections 10.1.1.2 and 10.1.1.3 for a list of actions that can improve DL. Also review 10.2 to understand how recon flights work. Short answer: recon flights, bombing missions, and bombardment all potentially give you information and raise DL levels of LCU's in a hex. The higher your DL (viewable by mouseover on a base), the more likely you are to have a good idea of what defends the hex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus
3) Is there a nice spreadsheet which shows me on one page which Japanese airplanes use which engines?

Press I to bring up intelligence reports, then press e to bring up Aircraft/Engine Production, then sort by Engine. Tracker has the ability to export the aircraft list to a CSV file which you can then open in a spreadsheet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus
4) Any video or text guide on exactly what to click on the Japanese engine production / R&D page and WHY to click it (like I said, Allies are "EZ mode" :)

You won't get two JFB's to give you the same answer on this one. So much depends upon the player's approach to the game. Understanding the Japanese economy as modeled in the game as well as aircraft R&D is a topic that spans dozens of threads in the forum.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Timotheus)

Post #: 2

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/20/2017 4:07:55 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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I would suggest you continue to play allies a bit more. switching to IJ early in the learning curve can be self-defeating due to the added complexities. You should know all of the basics first, recon especially. play the short scenarios (Guadacanal and others) until you really have the mechanics down.

Switch to IJ in the small scenarios to start getting a feel of how playing with limited fuel/supply and lack of repair impacts decisions.

You do not want to try IJ in the GC too early ...

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Pax

(in reply to Timotheus)

Post #: 3

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/20/2017 4:27:44 AM

Timotheus

Posts: 481
Joined: 12/13/2013
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Thanks InfiniteMonkey! Wow, great info, exactly what I was looking for.

Pax - it is end of 1942 in my campaign, the poor Japanese AI airpower was obliterated, I am on the offensive everywhere, the poor scripts/game engine cannot handle Burma and China land war at all.....

Game is becoming stale as Palembang is STILL being defended by my Dutch boys (and shows no signs of falling at all!), my subs are obliterating Japanese tankers and transports, and like I said, the Japanese lost so many pilots that their A6M2 and M3 and Tojos are now terrified of my P-40's and Aircobras and not the other way around! Fortress Darwin's B17's are obliterating any Japanese airplanes which dare to land on nearby island airfields (names escape me) and my B26's and B25's decimate Japanese shipping..... Meanwhile in Burma I am getting ready to siege Rangoon while my British bombers obliterate the airstrip (and planes parked therein) at night.

Note: Holy crap is night bombing overpowered in this game.

Trust me, I got the basics down... At least as far as defense goes. For offense.... well, that's why I want to try Japan

With regards to recon, yeah, I reckoned so (..hehehehehehe) that the detection level helps me to see in the hex. Wonder if sending a sub into the base also helps.... It seems so - when I sent some subs to lay some mines the base icon showed Japanese troops there.. maybe I am mistaken and something else other than sub detected it. So bombing and Recon flights it is.

< Message edited by Timotheus -- 8/20/2017 4:29:44 AM >

_____________________________

NEWBIE GUIDE Distant Worlds Universe
http://tinyurl.com/k3frrle

War in the Pacific Poradnik po Polsku
http://tinyurl.com/nxd4cesh

INSTALL WITPAE on modern PC
https://tinyurl.com/l5kr6rl

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 4

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/20/2017 5:06:29 AM

Aurorus

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
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The best way to learn how to play Japan is read some of the Japan player AARs on the forums: especially the discussions about economy management. This is how I learned. Japan is much harder to play than the allies. First, there is the economy, and there are many pitfalls. Second, there is no forgivenss for major mistakes when playing Japan. It is not simply that Japan must be on the offensive; Japan must gain ground quickly without losing important assets, such as CVs, large numbers of pilots, large amounts of supply, fuel, etc... .

There is no "learning curve" when playing Japan. One mistake early on can ruin much of your enjoyment of a very long game. Therefore, you must have mastered, not only the basics, but also be familiar with the most common oversights that can cause tremendous misfortune (such as setting a prized CA SCTF to reaction range 5, 4 hexes away from an enemy base containing mines and coastal guns). There are so many clicks in the game. Sometimes, it is simply a matter of muscle memory, avoiding these pitfalls.

The best advice is read the AARs to learn the pitfalls, learn from others mistakes, and gain their insights into how to manage the economy.

(in reply to Timotheus)

Post #: 5

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/20/2017 12:04:31 PM

PaxMondo

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learning offensive mechanics is best done as allies in small scenarios ... coral sea, guadacanal, 1000 mile, Armageddon, .... Playing the IJ is about logistics not offense.

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Pax

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Post #: 6

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/20/2017 8:04:16 PM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

There is no "learning curve" when playing Japan. One mistake early on can ruin much of your enjoyment of a very long game. Therefore, you must have mastered, not only the basics, but also be familiar with the most common oversights that can cause tremendous misfortune (such as setting a prized CA SCTF to reaction range 5, 4 hexes away from an enemy base containing mines and coastal guns).

+1 to this

This is not a game where you can spam industry/factories and do well as Japan.

Once I mis-clicked and expanded a factory to 250 from 125 by clicking on the 'wrong' button. So my options were to redo the entire turn as moron I was at the time I did NOT save my game before 'playing' with facility expansion. Which of course a very long turn, well over 2 hours.

Or just live with my mistake. While I could always turn the factory on/off as needed, the resources to expand the factory were already used. So that was the issue. Japan does not have any slack to accommodate that kind of error.

Now against the AI would this matter? No. As Japan you can easily overrun China, Oz, Central Pac, etc. with no issues against the Allied AI. I'm in 1944 and still taking islands in the Central Pac. Fiji was my latest conquest

Against a human player, it would be a huge mistake. Plus you really should not do any redos unless the other side agrees.

The biggest problem for people playing as Japan the first time is that you start off with what appears to be a very large stockpile of resources and you need more stuff NOW. Unfortunately any unwise changes made early on will not show up as issues for months and sometimes a year+. Of course by then, it is much to late to 'fix' them as the US is generally fighting back making things even worse.

Several things can make this easier for you. One is to read my excellent Japanese Production Primer

. I have no issue self promoting myself lol.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605

Do not expand anything for a month. Record what your resource pools look like at the start of the game and again at the start of January. This will give you a good idea of what your 'run' rate is for all the various pools. Then you can start making SMALL adjustments and checking every month to see how those changes improved/hurt your systems. Needless to say this should be done against the Allied AI. This way you can build up an idea of what YOU think is important to improve/ignore for Japan.

Continue the game against the ai until the end of '43 at least. This way you can see the results of your research/production changes/etc. Then you can either start over against the AI and do different things or jump in against a human player and really see the wimp Japan really is lol. You really have not played the game until you see a 300 plane fighter sweep followed by a 600+ raid from Allied CVs

I hope this helps and good luck.Always wanting to increase the number of JFBs in the world

(in reply to Aurorus)

Post #: 7

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/20/2017 8:34:33 PM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus
Hey all. I am doing OK versus a computer in scenario 033 (Andy's historical AI - not ironman, Japan only has historical forces and the script can only go so far).

I would like to try Japan vs a comp (maybe ironman allies scenario).

I do have some questions, because from what I see playing the Allies is "EZ mode" in this game :)

Playing Japan might seem more of the same as playing Allies, just harder. But is in fact very different. In a nutshell, Japan demands your skill to be front-loaded. Any kind of uninformed mistakes you make in the first 6 months when your expansion phase lasts will come back and bite you later. Playing Allies is much more forgiving because you are flush with assets in 44-45 in any case. Aurorus and Numdydar elaborated quite some about Japan pecularities.
You should ask yourself if you want harder play in terms of the opponent resistance - then you can try Andy's upgraded Japan Ironman AI, there are several tiers giving Japan more assets and more aggression. Or you want harder play in terms of long-term planning, whole new layer of game that is industry, and potentially costly mistakes that you can learn about only a year or two after you made them. In the latter case reading (and a whole lot of it I'd say) is your best friend.

(in reply to Timotheus)

Post #: 8

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/20/2017 9:11:16 PM

Aurorus

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Continue the game against the ai until the end of '43 at least. This way you can see the results of your research/production changes/etc. Then you can either start over against the AI and do different things or jump in against a human player and really see the wimp Japan really is lol. You really have not played the game until you see a 300 plane fighter sweep followed by a 600+ raid from Allied CVs

That is generally what I did. I played the AI Japan ironman a few times until Japanese auto-victory was certain and to see how my economy was performing into the war. Then I started PBEMs.

Japan is not that "wimpy" actually if supplies, heavy industry, and fuel are used efficiently. It just cannot fight a war of attrition or engage the enemy every day for the entire war. It must choose its battles, especially late in the war.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 9

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/21/2017 1:29:22 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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From: Germany
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I foundly remember my first game which I started as the Allies.
My defense of Singapore would make Percival look like a genius.

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RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/21/2017 8:18:24 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

The best way to learn how to play Japan is read some of the Japan player AARs on the forums:

Mike Solli's is one of the best for newbies. I believe you can find it currently on page 2 of the AAR section.

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(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)

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RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/21/2017 8:24:07 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

I foundly remember my first game which I started as the Allies.
My defense of Singapore would make Percival look like a genius.

My defense of Hoboken made General McClellan look like a genius.

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)

Post #: 12

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/21/2017 8:33:01 PM

ancient doctor

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I do have a question for those playing against allied AI stock.Is the AI creating stacks larger or not or it prefers to create a continous front?I am thinking of making a scenario with heavy brigades only jap units so i need to know ai's attidute.

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RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/21/2017 11:21:12 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
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AI cheats, as it must to be effective, but it does not create units out of whole cloth nor does it have an attidute. I have an attidute, but that's just me.

(in reply to ancient doctor)

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RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/22/2017 9:40:24 AM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ancient seaman
I do have a question for those playing against allied AI stock.Is the AI creating stacks larger or not or it prefers to create a continous front?I am thinking of making a scenario with heavy brigades only jap units so i need to know ai's attidute.

AI does not think in terms of front, it thinks in terms of bases. If it decides to capture the particular base it allocates assets to the task from all over the place and marches those to the base. Sometimes the stack can happen out of this.

(in reply to ancient doctor)

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RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/25/2017 8:31:23 AM

Alpha77

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@ InfiniteMonkey: I see this editor window says "by you", do you have a better version of the editor, perhaps ?

@ Timotheus: When you said, you "obliterated" AI airpower already in 42 you are mistaken, as the AI gets much bonus and planes "presents". Check my thread about 500 P40 the AI got more a while ago

I am not sure if the AI also gets trained pilots presents. It is also better you give up eg. Palembang or other historic places. It might break the AI if it does not get certain places it should get.

(in reply to GetAssista)

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RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/25/2017 2:29:33 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ InfiniteMonkey: I see this editor window says "by you", do you have a better version of the editor, perhaps ?

@ Timotheus: When you said, you "obliterated" AI airpower already in 42 you are mistaken, as the AI gets much bonus and planes "presents". Check my thread about 500 P40 the AI got more a while ago I am not sure if the AI also gets trained pilots presents. It is also better you give up eg. Palembang or other historic places. It might break the AI if it does not get certain places it should get.

Timotheus said he obliterated the Japanese AI airpower - i.e. he was the one getting those P-40s!

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(in reply to Alpha77)

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RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/25/2017 3:05:40 PM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ InfiniteMonkey: I see this editor window says "by you", do you have a better version of the editor, perhaps ?

@ Timotheus: When you said, you "obliterated" AI airpower already in 42 you are mistaken, as the AI gets much bonus and planes "presents". Check my thread about 500 P40 the AI got more a while ago I am not sure if the AI also gets trained pilots presents. It is also better you give up eg. Palembang or other historic places. It might break the AI if it does not get certain places it should get.

That is a screenshot from the current version of the new editor...well it was current when I posted. Ive made more changes since then...

See http://www.matrixgames.com/Forums/tm.asp?m=4317059 for more info on new editor project.

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 18

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/25/2017 3:47:25 PM

Kull

Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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One of the links in my sig takes you to the download for the Japanese "Air-Engine Planner" spreadsheet. It allows you to correlate airframes to engines and figure out what amounts of each are needed from industry. Much less painful to plan it out this way than to oops your way through the factories.

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Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 19

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/25/2017 3:58:27 PM

MakeeLearn

Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
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quote:

Timotheus
I would like to try Japan vs a comp (maybe ironman allies scenario).

Would that be "Scne 17 Ironman: Revenge of the Dorniers" from "Patch 07 unofficial data scen updates" in the Tech forum!?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3198064&mpage=1&key=

Do the Ironmans use Stock Map?

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 8/25/2017 4:05:30 PM >

(in reply to Kull)

Post #: 20

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/25/2017 11:49:48 PM

Aurorus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Do the Ironmans use Stock Map?

Yes.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)

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RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/26/2017 8:36:21 PM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ InfiniteMonkey: I see this editor window says "by you", do you have a better version of the editor, perhaps ?

@ Timotheus: When you said, you "obliterated" AI airpower already in 42 you are mistaken, as the AI gets much bonus and planes "presents". Check my thread about 500 P40 the AI got more a while ago I am not sure if the AI also gets trained pilots presents. It is also better you give up eg. Palembang or other historic places. It might break the AI if it does not get certain places it should get.

Timotheus said he obliterated the Japanese AI airpower - i.e. he was the one getting those P-40s!

My thread was about the Allied AI getting these "bonus planes" (I noted the 500 P40 first), but I guess the IJ AI gets the same bonus planes....

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 22

RE: Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Al... - 8/31/2017 7:29:03 PM

Timotheus

Posts: 481
Joined: 12/13/2013
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I think that the Japanese TF with 1st turn move bonus should be a sticky.

_____________________________

NEWBIE GUIDE Distant Worlds Universe
http://tinyurl.com/k3frrle

War in the Pacific Poradnik po Polsku
http://tinyurl.com/nxd4cesh

INSTALL WITPAE on modern PC
https://tinyurl.com/l5kr6rl

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 23

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Beginner Japan questions - want to try vs Andy's Allied AI (but clueless :)

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