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Wiki for NewDawn features? - 10/30/2017 5:35:08 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline 		Can you point me to an in-depth reference, specifically for those features that are not in the manual?
Post #: 1
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 10/30/2017 6:15:56 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		There are some mentions of those new features here, furthest down on the page.

http://www.vrdesigns.net/atwiki/doku.php?id=engine_rules

However I think they are more for modders than players. It might be faster to just ask what the new features do, and how to operate them, than wait for a tutorial or something of the sort... A few of us know quite alot about the game (perhaps showing how much time we spend on it... ) :)

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Post #: 2
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 10/31/2017 3:59:25 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline 		I am just now returning to ATG after a few years pause. I know nothing about TOEs, leaders ant tank construction. And I would prefer to learn about them by reading the rules rather than trial and error.

So yes, what do those features do and how do I use them was what I had in mind. Sorry if my question wasnīt clear.

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Post #: 3
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/1/2017 7:05:20 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Tesuji,

Try this YouTube by KirkAlmighty. It aint bad in helping you out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrRFJUgjdU0

Yes it is not reading. But I does explain step by step.

This one might help as well (by Das)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_StZ1tRL0Ys&t=3s

Best wishes,
Vic

_____________________________

Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics

(in reply to sIg3b)
Post #: 4
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/1/2017 6:00:51 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you for responding, and btw, thanks for making AT -itīs truly unique!

Unfortunately, while I can read/write English ok, I donīt understand spoken English very well; is there a textfile somewhere on those features?

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Post #: 5
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/1/2017 8:00:27 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well... until Vic points you in another direction, here is some of the skinny. Be aware I am writing this from a modders point of view, since I have not played the Vanilla (NewDawn) game.

Leaders are an add-on to HQs. You assign them to a HQ in other words. They have combat and morale bonuses (or sometimes even negative effects). These bonuses are in addition to the bonus that a HQ would grant as well. You are not getting the full bonus from the leader, unless his staff number is equal to or less than the Staff in the HQ.

Leaders can have cards associated with them. Cards can do a lot of funky things, and different modders can make them do different things too. In fact there are no limits to what a card can do. In NewDawn the cards are explained on themselves. Cards normally do not cost any PPs to use, but they are not always available. A will become availably on a random basis. If the card is not available the percentage chance it will become available is printed on it.

Leaders can have small programs (or larger programs) attached to them. These are called feats or abilities. They work automatically, and I have not yet seen what they do in NewDawn, but I know a couple of them. For instance one gives experience to units under the Leaders' HQ' command.

Leaders can cost points to assign to a HQ, or they can cost points to releave of a HQ. They can also be "bought" from the list of officers that is randomly generated (or is fixed). Also in some mods, leaders can level up. Of course there is a limit as to how high they can get in levels, but they seem to always be an improvement (although you could program otherwise).

Leaders do not die in combat (in NewDawn). They can however die if they use their cards, or become wounded, in the same manner.

I think that covers leaders.


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Post #: 6
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/1/2017 8:14:08 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		A TO&E (Table of Organization & Equipment), lists what a unit can be composed of. You define this in the TO&E editor which is part of the games functions, if enabled. The editor should be somewhat intuitive, just keep in mind, there is a lot of clicking, and remember that a TO&E is specific to what troops people that are in it. This is important to note.

A TO&E formation can be assigned to any unit, once made. If the unit is composed of troops that are not in the TO&E you have made, then these troops (or troops of a different people, but same subformation type), will be sent back to the HQ they are connected to. Conversly, troops that are in the TO&E formation will be sent to the unit, in steps of one HQ at a time. So if you have three HQs (Main, Area, Frontline), then the units will travel over two turns to get there (First Main-> Area, then Area -> Frontline).

This may seem slow, but it also lessens the micromanagement. At least it makes you do the stuff needed to be done to set up the TO&E in one turn, from then on you can (mostly) sit back, and watch it work.

Naturally this work isn't done without some sort of transport being available. While units do travel longer than they could normally (a mod can set how far, or short), they still need that transport. So trucks and trains are usually needed in the HQs that do the transporting, or it needs to be near the HQ it is going to transport to.

The TO&E also lets you choose a symbol you want for units to have. The symbol is a two part NATO unit icon. The first part of the ICON is a unit type symbol (Infantry for instance would be a box with a cross in it from corner to corner), and a unit size symbol (xxx on the side of the unit would denote a corps, xx a division... etc.)..

You will also be naming the units type (for instance riflemen) and each riflemen unit type will get numbered. (2nd unit you assign a TO&E for riflemen would be 2nd Riflemen)... and you can also choose to have this written on the upper portion of the Symbol for this unit, or the number for the unit.

There are more things that can be tinkered with in game. For instance, the number of reinforcements the unit in question should take in pr. turn (in percentages). ... and much much more.

I think that rounds out the TO&E ok. Of course I haven't shown you how to do anything with pictures. But hey, if I get the time I might. Sorry for there being no description of Tank Models (or Models, they could be models of anything basically) but I have yet to fiddle with them.

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Post #: 7
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 4:01:51 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you! Does the AI in random games use leaders?

< Message edited by Tesuji -- 11/2/2017 4:02:39 PM >

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 8
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 4:22:32 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline 		I am currently playing a New Dawn Random Scenario: Small Map, One City Start, 2 Allied AIs.

TOEs are an enormous improvement; the reason why I had stopped playing AI was the repetitiveness of making the same Infantry Unit x100. Solved!

My game has arrived at a stalemate of sorts; I formerly did beat 2 allied AIs with ease; difficulties I have now are in part because the game has improved; but in part also because I donīt know how auto-reinforcement works. I have a lot of understrength units at the front and a lot of of Infantry, MGs, Bazookas and Mortars sitting at Supreme HQ. I have not the foggiest notion why they arenīt moving. Perhaps a bug, or I donīt have enough Trains, or I am doing something else wrong. Impossible to know without knowing precisely how auto-reinforcement is supposed to work. So Iīd really need some hard info on the TOE game mechanics.

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Post #: 9
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 4:30:22 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji
Thank you! Does the AI in random games use leaders?


They do, in New Dawn, I believe. (also in the 2nd Civil War scenario)

(in reply to sIg3b)
Post #: 10
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 4:31:53 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

I am currently playing a New Dawn Random Scenario: Small Map, One City Start, 2 Allied AIs.

TOEs are an enormous improvement; the reason why I had stopped playing AI was the repetitiveness of making the same Infantry Unit x100. Solved!

My game has arrived at a stalemate of sorts; I formerly did beat 2 allied AIs with ease; difficulties I have now are in part because the game has improved; but in part also because I donīt know how auto-reinforcement works. I have a lot of understrength units at the front and a lot of of Infantry, MGs, Bazookas and Mortars sitting at Supreme HQ. I have not the foggiest notion why they arenīt moving. Perhaps a bug, or I donīt have enough Trains, or I am doing something else wrong. Impossible to know without knowing precisely how auto-reinforcement is supposed to work. So Iīd really need some hard info on the TOE game mechanics.


Like you said, impossible to know, if you cannot look at the situation without knowledge of it. That goes for me too btw. I have not the foggiest notion why they don't work, cause I have gotten too few clues.

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Post #: 11
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 4:55:37 PM   
sIg3b


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Status: offline 		Of course! I do not expect you to find out why I am stuck; but I guess I could figure it out myself, if I had some hard info on the auto-reinforcement process.

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Post #: 12
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 5:00:24 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Status: offline 		Well, it could be a multitude of things. Like do you have fuel problems, if so, that could be the reason. Or for instance, are your HQs so far apart that the transfer cannot happen? Are the HQs you want to transfer to, actually part of the same HQ chain? Also, if the top HQ has trains but not trucks, and the HQ it is transfering to is not on rails... then it might give a problem too.


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RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 5:18:32 PM   
Twotribes


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Status: offline 		You need trucks and trains for transfers over any distance. Trains work on roads and trucks transfer across non road spaces.

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Post #: 14
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 5:19:30 PM   
Twotribes


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Status: offline 		And you need cargo ships if transferring across oceans.

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RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 5:46:53 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
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Status: offline 		People, I know how Strategic Transfer works. I am not new to AT, only to New Dawn.

The devil is in the detail. This is why I need to know: Exactly how does the Autoreinforce routine use the Strategic Transfer routine?

(Otherwise I canīt make a precise prediction what will be where 1 turn from now.)

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Post #: 16
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 7:14:48 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Not to put a too fine point on it, but I don't think you will get a more in-depth description of the process of autoreinforcements, that the one you have gotten, save by Vic himself. I do understand your frustration, but understand, we are trying to help, and you are shooting the messengers.

One thing you could do would be to send the save game to one of us, and that person could take a peak to decide what is happening. If you feel lucky that person might be Vic too.

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Post #: 17
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/2/2017 10:13:42 PM   
Twotribes


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Status: offline 		Auto reinforcement sends reinforcements to the units under a hq. It will travel one hq at a time through the chain of command so if the receiving hqs has more then one Hqs between the supplying Hqs and its self it will take several turns to receive the reinforcements. Further the Hqs will first retain what IT needs as far as the TOE goes before distributing troops. Each individual unit has a short range it can be delivered with out Strategic resources. After that you must provide the truck or train to move it.

So from main Hqs to a secondary Hqs directly attached it would take a minimum of 2 turns for reinforcements to be received by unit. One turn to Hqs one turn to unit. And it the Hqs will try and fulfill all demands placed on it so if you take new loses before the two turns is up the old reinforcements will be divided between the original demand and the new demands and more reinforcements sent from main HQS.

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RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/3/2017 4:55:06 PM   
sIg3b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Auto reinforcement sends reinforcements to the units under a hq. It will travel one hq at a time through the chain of command so if the receiving hqs has more then one Hqs between the supplying Hqs and its self it will take several turns to receive the reinforcements. Further the Hqs will first retain what IT needs as far as the TOE goes before distributing troops. Each individual unit has a short range it can be delivered with out Strategic resources. After that you must provide the truck or train to move it.

So from main Hqs to a secondary Hqs directly attached it would take a minimum of 2 turns for reinforcements to be received by unit. One turn to Hqs one turn to unit. And it the Hqs will try and fulfill all demands placed on it so if you take new loses before the two turns is up the old reinforcements will be divided between the original demand and the new demands and more reinforcements sent from main HQS.


Yes, this completely agrees with my experience so far.

Last time I played was version 2.06 or so, and the improvements since are tremendous. 90% of the time I want to praise the game sky-high; the other 10% I am cursing the outdated documentation.

My Frenchies decided to surrender to the German-Chinese alliance (No French Surrender jokes, please! ), and I have started a new game, 1:1 this time, to be on the safe side. I used to be very thrifty with spending on Transport, but less micromanagement also means I canīt rely as much on improvisation and the automated process will not always have the same priorities as I, so more Trucks this time.

One thing that is not clear to me at all is this: Suppose my Supreme HQ has only Trains, no Trucks -does it deliver only to HQs/units that sit directly on rails, or can the SFs move a couple hexes on their own volition AFTER leaving the trains?

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Post #: 19
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/3/2017 6:41:18 PM   
Twotribes


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Status: offline 		I dont think they can move after what ever movement past the basic free move? However I have noticed they will populate units away from ports on another continent.

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Post #: 20
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/4/2017 4:46:41 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
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Status: offline 		Hmmmph; one thing I really like to have is precise rulus as in a boardgame. I never want to be reduced to guessing if reinforcements can reach a given hex, or if my Strategic Transport resources are sufficient.

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RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/4/2017 10:40:37 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Status: offline 		Some people call lack of control realism, however I do feel your pain. :(

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RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/5/2017 4:57:43 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline 		Lack of control is ok, where intentional and defined, like Command&Control rules; I just donīt like a lack of control that creeps in through bugs or a vague manual.

That said, I am very impressed with the positives of 2.25; incremental AI improvements over the years really add up to something! Fighting one AI is still easy, but at least it does now fight back and even tries to form a coherent line. And 2 Allied AIs have become challenging.

With TOEs and all the incremental improvements, I find ATG 2.25 about 8x as good as the original AT.

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RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/6/2017 7:40:20 AM   
Vic


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quote:


One thing that is not clear to me at all is this: Suppose my Supreme HQ has only Trains, no Trucks -does it deliver only to HQs/units that sit directly on rails, or can the SFs move a couple hexes on their own volition AFTER leaving the trains?

No that should not be possible.
My ideal setup for the TOE feature with a large army would be something like
HIGH HQ => by train => LOWER HQ (on rail hex) => by truck => Units (out in the field)

Best wishes,
Vic

_____________________________

Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics

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RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/6/2017 8:16:49 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

quote:


One thing that is not clear to me at all is this: Suppose my Supreme HQ has only Trains, no Trucks -does it deliver only to HQs/units that sit directly on rails, or can the SFs move a couple hexes on their own volition AFTER leaving the trains?

No that should not be possible.
My ideal setup for the TOE feature with a large army would be something like
HIGH HQ => by train => LOWER HQ (on rail hex) => by truck => Units (out in the field)

Best wishes,
Vic


*Precisely* what I was doing in my 2nd game.

I must be a fast learner.







Attachment (1)

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Post #: 25
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/7/2017 4:21:26 AM   
Ormand


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Status: offline 		Another little tip is that the reinforcements will go to your HQ at the beginning of your turn. They will be dispersed to your units at towards the end. But, if you are impatient, or want to make sure they go where you want, you can move them during your turn. For the most part, you should let the TOE system move things around for you even though it will take an extra turn because the movement costs for the TOE system are less, and you will move things more quickly. In addition, there doesn't seem to be the readiness loss that comes with transferring units from one HQ to another. Again, largely because it will take you a bit longer than doing it directly yourself.

You should also make sure your SHQ has some trucks as wlel, just in case you need to transfer to HQs that had to be moved off the rail.

Lastly, on a large map, you might need more than one layer of HQs, you might want to have trains in the second HQ as well.

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Post #: 26
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/7/2017 9:17:04 PM   
sIg3b


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Status: offline 		And I suppose if the reinforcements have to cross the ocean, it will take longer, and likely get more complicated?

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Post #: 27
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/8/2017 6:11:47 AM   
Ormand


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Status: offline 		Yes, and no. First, you need enough transports, which might have to be assigned to the same HQ, like trains need to be) for the HQ to send them abroad. They can then be shipped to an HQ in a port. The reinforcements will then be dispersed as usual. In addition, the transfers can be intercepted by anti-supply. So, you could lose some. Basically, you need to to have enough cargoships, for transport, to send the requested reinforcements to an HQ in a distant port. But, beware, the enemy can intercept them.

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Post #: 28
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/8/2017 4:29:31 PM   
sIg3b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand

Yes, and no. First, you need enough transports, which might have to be assigned to the same HQ, like trains need to be) for the HQ to send them abroad. They can then be shipped to an HQ in a port. The reinforcements will then be dispersed as usual. In addition, the transfers can be intercepted by anti-supply. So, you could lose some. Basically, you need to to have enough cargoships, for transport, to send the requested reinforcements to an HQ in a distant port. But, beware, the enemy can intercept them.


So I need:

1) Supreme HQ with Trains
2) Port HQ with Cargo Ships
3) Port HQ on the other side of the ocean with Trains
4) Forward HQ with Trucks

Reinforcements to reach the units will take a whopping 4 turns. That is, if I do everything right, have the required amount of transport everywhere and donīt get intercepted.

Well,ok. I suppose intercontinental invasions shouldnīt be too easy.

(in reply to Ormand)
Post #: 29
RE: Wiki for NewDawn features? - 11/8/2017 11:12:08 PM   
Ormand


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Status: offline 		Yes, that's pretty much it.

It isn't as bad as it first looks. There are several positive benefits with the TOE system. For one, it costs less to reinforce units, and there isn't that terrible loss in readiness when transferring to a different HQ. In addition, when you do it manually, you have pretty much the same turn delay, since you transfer to an HQ, but then can't use movement (I believe) to send them to another unit after the transfer. Like I said before, the transfer to the final unit looks like it will happen that turn anyway. At the start of the turn, the SFTypes that get transferred to an HQ can move that turn, so you can send them to their respective units manually during your turn. They will use either own movement or the trucks in the destination HQ. It is a pretty good system that will save some time, but you should watch over it every now and then.

You can also skip the transfer to Port HQ with Cargo Ships by sending production to that HQ. I don't do this against the AI myself. I tend to send all production to the SHQ unless the city is isolated or on another continent. The reason being that this gives the AI a little help. It also represents what would be called a proper centralized system. Plus, the TOE, human players get a leg up on how it went before.

(in reply to sIg3b)
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