Gulf of Riga Defense

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Gulf of Riga Defense

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> Mods and Scenarios >> Gulf of Riga Defense

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 3:20:46 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

So, trying to deploy the Soviet defensive works for the Gulf of Riga. Lots of coastal gun batteries. Problem is, the only map I've been able to find was on an ASL site. https://www.aslscenarioarchive.com/

The little cresents with a line are batteries. )- Some are hard to see but this is the best I've found. Doesn't show the size of the guns just the emplacements. I know what a few of them are supposed to be but there are so many.

I could make assumptions based of where they are and what kind of range they need to deny passage but it's going to be simple speculation. Anyone have any idea regarding what size guns go where? Niehorster's site has a little info but still there are big holes.

Gulf of Finland defenses will be the same. More speculation than good info.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I�m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn�t come back?
A: A stick.

Post #: 1

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 4:20:40 PM

cathar1244

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

Any idea which Soviet command had those subordinated to it?

Cheers

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 2

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 4:52:42 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

Here is a link to a Russian wikipedia page with some helpful info and a kind of crappy map:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F

Below is a list of Soviet forces...you can probably feed it into Google translate, but the bottom line is a
rifle brigade of the NW Front (about 6500 men), a few additional battalions of naval and rifle infantry, 12
fighters, and 55 coastal artillery pieces in 16 batteries, including 3 x quad 180mm turrets, 1 x 152mm, 8 x
130mm, and 3 x 100mm. Also six torpedo boats and 14 trawlers, plus some other stuff--a few tanks, pioneer batts, etc.

********
СССР
3-я отдельная стрелковая бригада 8-й армии Северо-Западного фронта (около 6500 человек)
отдельные части: батальон моряков, 2 батальона 249-го стрелкового полка 16-й стрелковой дивизии, эстонский стрелковый батальон, 4 отдельные роты, подразделения погранотряда
142 орудия береговой, полевой и зенитной артиллерии, 60 миномётов, 795 пулемётов
55 орудий береговой артиллерии � 16 батарей, в том числе: 3 четырёхорудийные башенные 180-мм, 1х152-мм, 8х130-мм, 3х100-мм
лёгкая бронетехника: взвод химических танков (4-5 штук), 2 танкетки, 5-6 блиндированных трактора
12 самолётов-истребителей
4 отдельных инженерных батальона
6 торпедных катеров, 17 тральщиков, 6 мотоботов, буксир, транспорт
Всего: 23 663 человек.

Руководитель обороны � комендант береговой обороны Балтийского района (БОБР) генерал-лейтенант береговой службы А. Б. Елисеев, военный комиссар БОБР � дивизионный комиссар Г. Ф. Зайцев, начальник штаба БОБР � подполковник А. И. Охтинский.
*********

This was about two minutes with a Russian-language google search, I'll poke around a bit more to see if there is more info.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/17/2021 4:54:51 PM >

(in reply to cathar1244)

Post #: 3

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 5:08:37 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

I found several other articles about this operation, but none of them provided more detailed OOB info, and all of them used the same map that you've already seen. I've posted another version here, just in case it is higher resolution than what you have:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/17/2021 5:09:22 PM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 4

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 5:13:31 PM

cathar1244

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

Yeah, I saw the 3d Rifle Brigade in the Russian archives, but the map didn't show the batteries.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 6/17/2021 5:24:08 PM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 5

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 6:26:59 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

This map is easier to read than the one I found. The troops and equipment are the same as I have except for the batteries that were under construction and completed before the Germans landed. The map shows them as completed too. The two emplacements (4x305mm guns in 2 turrets and 4x180mm guns in two turrets) on the Svorbe Peninsula could fire all around and the Soviets had time to heavily fortify the peninsula for a final stand. They never intended to evacuate. Those guns and 4x130mm guns in two turrets on the north most peninsula of Hiimuaa Island (site of present day lighthouse) are all I am positive of. Others like the guns on Muhu under construction and the plethora of others will have to be a guess as to what goes where I suppose.

Also found out the guns on Abruka Island are 3x130mm. That still leaves a lot of guns.

Big thanks for that map. Huge help.

I was wondering exactly where the Brandenburgers made their glider landing. Just realized it's shown on the map too.

This operation is like a mini campaign.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I found several other articles about this operation, but none of them provided more detailed OOB info, and all of them used the same map that you've already seen. I've posted another version here, just in case it is higher resolution than what you have:

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/17/2021 6:30:46 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 6

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 6:42:21 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

Next question: do the coastal guns even matter? Was the coastal gun bug (where they evaporate upon being hit by anything) ever fixed?

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 7

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 6:48:01 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

For What Its Worth (resource War in the East 2):

Ventspils
29th PVO AA Battalion (3x 85mm AA, 7x 76.2mm AA, 1x 37mm AA)
Ventspils Airbase (11x 37mm AA, 11x 7.62mm Quad Maxim AAMG, 8x 12.7mm DShK AAMG)
40 BAP (52x SB-2)
I/45 FR MG-Artillery Battalion (3x light artillery, 2x AT, 2x artillery)

Its a lot of work using the editor to look that up, not sure if that kind of info will help or not.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 8

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 7:01:35 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Ventspils was part of the Irbensky defense group. I have good information there.

Little known triva. Five German torpedo boats seized Liepaja harbor the day before the 291 Infantry division got there.

I didn't think about opening my FitE2 beta to check.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/17/2021 7:06:31 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 9

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 9:17:20 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

For What Its Worth (resource War in the East 2):

Ventspils
29th PVO AA Battalion (3x 85mm AA, 7x 76.2mm AA, 1x 37mm AA)
Ventspils Airbase (11x 37mm AA, 11x 7.62mm Quad Maxim AAMG, 8x 12.7mm DShK AAMG)
40 BAP (52x SB-2)
I/45 FR MG-Artillery Battalion (3x light artillery, 2x AT, 2x artillery)

Its a lot of work using the editor to look that up, not sure if that kind of info will help or not.

Bummer. I tried firing up my WitE2 beta copy and it happens to be on a hard drive that blew up. Now it's double

Oh well. Thanks for the idea anyway.

_____________________________

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 10

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 9:19:37 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Next question: do the coastal guns even matter? Was the coastal gun bug (where they evaporate upon being hit by anything) ever fixed?

A couple of them could fire inland. So I put a second icon to cover that. They should at least work that way. As for the coastal gun bug I thought we had to do some kind of lame work around for bugs these days since no one fixes them anymore. Not sure.

_____________________________

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 11

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/17/2021 9:32:03 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Any idea which Soviet command had those subordinated to it?

Cheers

The guns on the islands operate in the 8th Army area and are subordinate to the Gulf of Riga Defence Command which is part of the Baltic Naval Area, Baltic Fleet. Some in the Irbansky Defense Sector (the ones on the Svorbe Peninsula) and some in the Saaremaa Island Defense Sector. And then some directly to the Baltic Area Coast Defense Command in Tallinn. Seems all the commands get thrown in a blender once the bullets start flying if it isn't already confusing enough. To simplify things I put the island batteries in the same command. Probably should have just put it all into the NW Front since hierarchy is meaningless in TOAW.

_____________________________

(in reply to cathar1244)

Post #: 12

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/18/2021 5:36:22 AM

cathar1244

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

The guns on the islands operate in the 8th Army area and are subordinate to the Gulf of Riga Defence Command which is part of the Baltic Naval Area, Baltic Fleet. Some in the Irbansky Defense Sector (the ones on the Svorbe Peninsula) and some in the Saaremaa Island Defense Sector. And then some directly to the Baltic Area Coast Defense Command in Tallinn. Seems all the commands get thrown in a blender once the bullets start flying if it isn't already confusing enough. To simplify things I put the island batteries in the same command. Probably should have just put it all into the NW Front since hierarchy is meaningless in TOAW.

Yes, apparently the Baltic Fleet had (at least) nominal command of the coastal batteries on the "Moon" islands. I looked at the Pamyat archives but the material is very thin for this period; for 8th Army, 3d Rifle Brigade, and Baltic Fleet. I saw no maps that showed the batteries.

You are correct about the formation aspect regarding TOAW. No sense in trying to make those guns be part of a naval command.

Cheers

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 13

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/18/2021 1:54:06 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

OK, found two maps with locations of specific artillery batteries:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/18/2021 5:35:20 PM >

(in reply to cathar1244)

Post #: 14

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/18/2021 1:54:49 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

and this one:

Attachment (1)

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 15

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/18/2021 1:56:58 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

Both those maps from from this site, which has a huge collection of Soviet maps:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 16

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/18/2021 5:09:58 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Wow Tom. That last one even shows the ground units. You da man. I've been searching for a couple of weeks now and the ASL one was the best I could find. But these that you found are the best.

_____________________________

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 17

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/18/2021 5:41:13 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

No worries. I like maps!

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 18

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/19/2021 5:51:47 AM

cathar1244

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

https://thelib.ru/books/00/17/29/00172913/i_010.jpg

Another map showing battery locations and bore diameter of the guns -- to compare with Tom's find.

This one shows unit IDs.

https://thelib.ru/books/00/17/29/00172913/i_009.jpg

And a "military-historical" essay on the islands, including information on the defenses of 1941:

https://thelib.ru/books/sergey_buldygin/moonzund_1941_russkiy_soldat_srazhaetsya_uporno_i_hrabro-read.html

nb. Items located with the assistance of an internet colleague. My Russian is far too sparse to find material like this.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 6/19/2021 10:29:17 AM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 19

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/19/2021 11:44:29 AM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Wow this is all far better than I had imagined. You guys have gone above and beyond.

_____________________________

(in reply to cathar1244)

Post #: 20

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/19/2021 4:55:33 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Now with all of this new information I have to undeploy and redeploy everything becuase I was only guessing.

Naturally I had it all wrong.

_____________________________

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 21

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/19/2021 5:18:54 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

If you're getting this detailed for every little bit of front, I'm guessing we should expect your scenario by, say, the end of 2048?

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 22

RE: Gulf of Riga Defense - 6/19/2021 8:31:12 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Yeah about the same time the next TOAW patch is out.

I'm just trying to get things right. But that's not entirely possible with the East Front so I try to get right what I can. The smaller the scale the more difficult it becomes. If the scale was 25km you wouldn't even have to worry about it. Somewhat close would be good enough but that would be the lazy way out. The map hardly even has to be accurate at 25km.

_____________________________

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 23