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Counters for Spain Joining Axis

 
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Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 3/31/2018 1:02:43 AM   
elxaime

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Just curious what folks think, especially the Allied players, as to how to counter Spain joining the Axis? Welcome thoughts.




< Message edited by elxaime -- 3/31/2018 1:11:04 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 3/31/2018 2:27:14 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Depending on how the Axis approaches Spain, there are several proceedings to delay: use the first turn ingame to invest into influencing Spain per diplo with all available brit. and french chits; don´t let the Axis get Algier by amphib. landings, and if they`re taking the route via Tunesia, it might be possible to destroy tac. bombers and fighters by carriers. Be ready to amphib. Casablanca, and send 1-2 strat. bombers with escorts to destroy supply sources on the way to Casablanca. Additionally the fleet might help, but at that time the Germans will probably have a maritime bomber. Hold Casablanca until the USA joins and begin a diplo-offense immediately. Spain needs a 30% Axis' leaning for the DE to fire.

At least if the Axis succeeds, bomb Bordeaux strategically. This will reduce Spain's income by half - since it`s the only railway-connection to Berlin - as long as Vichy still exists.

Make good use of your carriers: any aircraft placed in plains is vulnerable to carrier-attacks; if you combine such a task with an offense in Libya during the deployment-phase of the DAK or the turns after Malta fell, you may be able to escort your carriers by fighters, which are preferable in dogfights and can be brought back to full strength in the med.. If you`re able to destroy the DAK, it simply means you`re succeeding in NA, it will be a long war, and the Axis won't be able to win even together with Spain. Spain is therefore not deciding, Cairo is.

(in reply to elxaime)
Post #: 2
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 3/31/2018 3:25:11 AM   
elxaime

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks. I am still relatively new at PBEM, but learning. I think the main difference between new players and the experienced players is the experienced ones use the various event choices much more strategically. Truly great system. The more you play, the more you realize the deceptively simple rules hide a very deep chess-like game.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 3
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 3/31/2018 6:26:21 AM   
LLv34Mika


Posts: 350
Joined: 12/29/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Thanks. I am still relatively new at PBEM, but learning. I think the main difference between new players and the experienced players is the experienced ones use the various event choices much more strategically. Truly great system. The more you play, the more you realize the deceptively simple rules hide a very deep chess-like game.


Hi

playing pbem games is the ONLY way to improve. Playing offline just means to get used to the mechanics and to see how the game works. Get a feeling for supply, some DE choices, technology, etc. I can only recommend to start online games as soon as possible. But get ready to get wiped out in a phenomenal way. That's how it goes the usual way. Just look and learn what someone has done to you. For me it was always helpful to play side A (get beaten badly) and then switch to side B just to see how to counter that. At some point your own ideas will help you and you can delay your enemy getting longer games and more learning effect.

If you want you can also join our tournament. It's not a big thing... just a ranking system. It is pretty new but players are still joining and it will get better and more fun the more players join.

Glad to see more players enjoying this game every month.

_____________________________

"Oderint, dum metuant."

(in reply to elxaime)
Post #: 4
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 3/31/2018 10:55:49 AM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 10/31/2015
Status: offline 		I played PBEM and just got smashed. I was surprised how players who had been playing a long time seemed to want to completely crush me. I've read some of the posts and having some way that newer players get some type of bonus is a good idea.

Why would I want to keep playing? Tournament why? So the players playing a long time can get their jollies?

Also I found that many of the tactics my opponents didn't reflect what happened in the war.

They easily took Malta very early which never happened. Then the countries in North Africa had almost no protection. Amphibious attacks were happening all over the place. That couldn't have happened.

I tried this strategy of putting my Navy to protect Algires but the other player had many subs and ship bombers and I just got smashed. How is when you take a small North Africa town you get all of Spain fair. I was amazed. How do you justify that?

< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 3/31/2018 12:17:00 PM >

(in reply to LLv34Mika)
Post #: 5
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 3/31/2018 2:09:21 PM   
elxaime

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8
Also I found that many of the tactics my opponents didn't reflect what happened in the war.


This to my mind is the main challenge for designers, whether of vanilla or the mods, going forward - is to develop more realistic and impactful decision trees and outcomes. This gets into the politics and ideology of the leadership and whether and how you model that. This goes on top, of course, of the usual bugbear of players having advance knowledge their real life counterparts would not have had.

Take Germany for example,led by Hitler and the NSDAP. Hitler came to power with a manifesto. Many of his perceived foibles and mistakes came about because he remained fixated on certain strategies, such as dealing with Stalin. The German officer corps, even after France, continued to hatch plots, including assassination plots. Many of Hitlers decisions also were aimed at playing off the leaders of the various factions and forces against one another to preserve his authority (SS, Luftwaffe, Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine) or to maintain certain understandings with foreign leaders like Franco and Mussolini.

I'd like to see more depth to this part of the system. Otherwise, the more you PBEM the more you start to see the same optimal approaches. It should also give a different "feel" to playing each side's nations. I am not talking going to the level of HOI IV, but a little more here would be great in future updates and greatly aid replay value.

< Message edited by elxaime -- 3/31/2018 2:16:40 PM >

(in reply to Dorky8)
Post #: 6
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/1/2018 6:41:37 PM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 10/31/2015
Status: offline 		You seem like u know the history better than me

Don't get me wrong I've played many war games and expect to lose in the beginning. People just seem to run up the score here.

My biggest complaint is that what really happened in the war isn't possible for allies.(keeping Malta, Spain not entering). I'm OK with Poland France Norway soviet.

Axis 2 much for early multiplayer.

(in reply to elxaime)
Post #: 7
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/1/2018 7:23:09 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Interesting concept to ask what the game does wrong instead of what you did wrong. How do you learn chess? Malta simply wasn`t invaded, that`s the reason Britain kept it, since the Axis decided to spend their efforts elsewhere. In SC3 player's are free to change historical decisions, it`s a strategy game. What`s the point in playing PbEM`s, when the game has to follow history? And why not simply play Axis, if you`re thinking their side to have an advantage?

(in reply to Dorky8)
Post #: 8
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/1/2018 7:39:45 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		There has to be some restrictions Sugar.
Otherwise you could argue, why not have the US and USSR declare war whenever the Allied player wants?

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(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 9
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/1/2018 8:00:06 PM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 10/31/2015
Status: offline 		My point is what really happened for allies can't happen here.

My understanding is allies cant keep Malta or Spain out of war.

Have I been told wrong?

Most say new players should play allies.

You are very hostile. Not u tax


< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 4/1/2018 8:21:08 PM >

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 10
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/1/2018 10:25:02 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Maybe your understanding is wrong, I never lost Spain to the Axis; and even if Malta falls, that doesn't mean NA is lost. Another approach could be to ask how and when expected attacks occurr, and how you could benefit from the calculated effort the opponent uses. Taking Malta is not that easy, if it shall fall within 2 turns the port has to be blocked and/or reduced. The Axis has limited options how to do that, you`ll even know where certain units are placed, why not trying to make use of that knowledge?

This my general recommendation: you know what your opponent wants to achieve, and under several circumstances especially in the early stages of war you won`t be able to prevent it totally, make him pay for it as bad as you can. I also don`t recommend to play the Allies, they are far more difficult to handle, and especially new players can easily lose focus. You may consider my answers as hostile, I`m simply trying to be honest; and I'm also not trying to hide usefull informations to benefit.



(in reply to Dorky8)
Post #: 11
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/1/2018 10:57:28 PM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 10/31/2015
Status: offline 		So when u play axis what % do u get Malta and what % do u get Spain?

Simple question

I think I would need more practice as sxis

< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 4/1/2018 10:59:29 PM >

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 12
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/4/2018 9:44:49 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		Of course he is going to duck your question

Here is the answer

Malta - 100% see other thread on Malta - acceptable result

Spain - 100% he doesn't win without this flaw in game



here is my post on DE 603 ( taking Algiers and getting Spain)


quote:

DE 603 a little light? Just a little.

All the Axis has to do is attack after fall '41 and the 8-15% for the US is close to or totally irrelevant.


1)Axis gets the geography (& mines & ports), additional slots and eventually Gibraltar(which has a large impact on Allies in NA).

2) 1300 value in Spanish troops and ships immediately

3) 250 MPP per turn

4) Taking Portugal a piece of cake after Spain.

All this for 800MPP (200x4) and taking out a 3 str non entrenched corp (with 30% Spain).


Also in my last game that the person tried DE 603 I had two troops within 5 hexes of Casablanca and it still fired.







< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 4/4/2018 11:49:24 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/5/2018 12:58:29 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		No need to hide that information: I took Spain and Malta everytime I found it to be necessary. Additional information: in 100% of my matches on Allies' side my opponent didn't get Spain, and in 33% of the matches I lost Britain to the Axis, but succeeded nevertheless.

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)
Post #: 14
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/5/2018 2:41:59 AM   
room

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 1/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar


At least if the Axis succeeds, bomb Bordeaux strategically. This will reduce Spain's income by half - since it`s the only railway-connection to Berlin - as long as Vichy still exists.




WHAT!!!? Please explain the mechanic.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 15
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/5/2018 4:24:48 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline
quote:

§ Connection by rail from Key Resources to other friendly resources will enable those resources to reach their maximum strength and supply levels.


In other words: disrupting the railway connection will reduce ressources' output to their minimum (from 10 to 5 in case of Spain). This will also prevent land forces from being operated. Therefore it`s necessary to keep key cities below 5.

That's the reason why Finland and Turkey have a significant strategical meaning: owning or occupying these countries or enabling them to connect to Berlin (by taking Leningrad) means to bring all conquered or freed (is there such a word in english?) countries like Iraq to their max. output, and to be able to operate troops from Lissabon to Wladiwostok or Narvik to El Alamein.


(in reply to room)
Post #: 16
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/5/2018 9:34:39 AM   
room

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 1/6/2011
Status: offline 		Will the bombing of Berlin Under 5 reduce all ressources forgermany?

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 17
RE: Counters for Spain Joining Axis - 4/5/2018 3:58:36 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar


At least if the Axis succeeds, bomb Bordeaux strategically. This will reduce Spain's income by half - since it`s the only railway-connection to Berlin - as long as Vichy still exists.








Hopefully that tough adversary Vichy holds off for this to work. Axis probably wouldn't think of AA in Bordeaux or maybe upgrading that new fighter they got in Spain. No Allied Strategic Bomber in Egypt, how many do you have?




< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 4/5/2018 4:11:17 PM >

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