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Sniper Use - 8/6/2003 7:42:42 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		I have some questions I would like all your opinions



1. How many are too many ?
I think currently its a Squad of snipers per Bn. There call a STA Plt but its about 12 personnel IICR, at least in the Marine Corps.


2. What do you use them for ?


3. Do you think they should be more expensive ?
Post #: 1
- 8/6/2003 9:05:48 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		1) I think you should buy as many as you want. They're expensive so this is self limiting.

2) Not telling you!

3) I think the value is about right for v7.1. Not sure about H2H.fr since they are so much more deadly.

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Post #: 2
My .02 - 8/6/2003 9:11:12 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		I'm certainly no expert on the use of snipers in Spwaw. I don't usually purchase them (unless I've got a few unused points left that I need to use up). However, I think I may be changing this ... particularily with the 60% spotting in the new H2H, and in view of their recon ability and increased lethality- snipers will certainly be a unit I will experiment with :)

As far as how many are too many ... I have noticed that the H2H OOB of a German '45 Grenadier company contains no less than TWO snipers per platoon!! :eek: I have no idea of how various nations in WWII approached the concept of snipers ... perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

Concerning cost, I think a sniper should be fairly expensive, when you consider the extra training involved - after all, just because you carry a scoped rifle doesn't mean you will be an effective sniper! This premium should be reflected in their price...

Lastly, the player likely has too much control over snipers in Spwaw ... in ASL they are treated almost as a 'random event', somewhat outside the regular command structure.

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Post #: 3
- 8/6/2003 4:23:55 PM   
Toontje

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		In ASL they didn't have radio's I guess.

(As a lot of snipers seem able to call down arty)

Otoh, how would you model snipers in SP?

(in reply to VikingNo2)
Post #: 4
*chuckles* - 8/6/2003 10:42:06 PM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		Ahem...

I may be to blame for the bad taste in Viking's mouth for snipers. I typically buy 6-10 of them. Why? I use them in rear areas for protecting valuable assets (semi-invisible spotters overwatching my ammo dumps for example).

Also, they round out the load in a schwimwagon very well. One 4-man recon squad and a sniper sped forward to spy on the enemy are my primary set of eyes forward.

In our 10000 point game, I think I have 10 (?) of them, which equates to 1% of my force. I learned a tough lesson though, that pushed my “formation count” well over 100, so that reinforcements won’t be available for me. All things considered, I’d trade them all for a few of those M-9 bazooka teams riding Greyhounds. ;) You’re killing me with those!

Since the Germans don’t have squads with small mortars in them, I like to pair Recon Squads with 50mm mortar sections. If I were to get lucky enough to get a fast (experienced) FO, a 0.2 delay on them will make it tough on infantry, MGs, or AT guns. I hate purchasing good “ride-on” infantry, and then getting a ton of 10-man squads that you automatically have to lose 2 men from just to put them on a Panther.

Back to snipers though, very useful in scouting forward and rear areas. Excellent against the US for eliminating fast-moving Jeeps, and other non-armored recon assets. I think their two-shot maximum and inability to take VHs balances them well. I wouldn’t have 30 of them, just like I wouldn’t have 30 Motorcycle squads, because that’s historically skewed and serious gamesmanship. But 1%of your force? Yes. Perhaps even 2% :D

(in reply to VikingNo2)
Post #: 5
- 8/6/2003 11:18:40 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		No bad taste, lately I have had muliple oppents have many more than I buy, so I trying to improve my game.

Samething for RCL's I almost never buy them but I have been running across them more and more.

Just trying to improve thats all :D

(in reply to VikingNo2)
Post #: 6
- 8/6/2003 11:20:35 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		About the Panther ride on, one of the German squads comes in a 8 man formation, don't remember which one though

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Post #: 7
- 8/6/2003 11:55:08 PM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		You are kidding me!

I thought I'd looked the OOB through!!! You may have just made my day. I was thinking about my next large game, and wondering how the heck I'd keep my formations down.

Here's hoping that whatever infantry type comes in Company-size lots :).

Thanks V.

(in reply to VikingNo2)
Post #: 8
- 8/7/2003 12:31:32 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Vat, check the elite troops. Like FJ or SS grenadiers. I recall that the better troops seemed to have smaller squads.

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 9
- 8/7/2003 1:12:47 AM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		Well well. Now I have another question thanks to you two! ;)

I always took “Grenadiers” to mean “Volks-Grenadiers”, and my understanding of them was that when the normal medium-level troops began to wear thin, the German high command began lowering its standards with regard to troop quality. Not quite conscripts (as I believe they were still enlisted), but the quality was much less than standard GE Infantry. They were the sick, lame and lazy that were passed over when building the uber-armies. But now, as the well was running dry, anyone who could carry a rifle and squeeze a trigger was an asset.

Again, my understanding was that these were the opposite of elite troops. They’re actually SS Grenadiers? What makes them different from the normal SS troops? What weapons load-out? Can’t wait for this bit of enlightenment! It’s like finding out that there’s still something buried in the packing in that box you got for Christmas ;).

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Post #: 10
- 8/7/2003 1:31:16 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		The "VG" is second line.

The "Grenadiers" carry grende launchers and are quite nasty. FJ or SS they will have the Grenade launchers as one of there weapons. If you play with reduced squads on, then regularly you formation will come with 8 men

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Post #: 11
Re: My .02 - 8/7/2003 3:05:22 AM   
odog1999

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 2/28/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by willy
[B]I have no idea of how various nations in WWII approached the concept of snipers ... perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in.[/B][/QUOTE]

The US never had a central training command... Snipers were typically men from their units, who were given scoped '03's and Garand rifles. Some units never trained snipers, others recruited game hunters and experience pre-war shooters.

Britiain didn't start training snipers until September of '43, with snipers typically being sent to brigades to attack to regiments.

Germany had trained marksmen from the day they crossed into Poland until the armistice was signed.

Russian leaders praised their snipers and exhorted the line infantry to be more like snipers.

In all nations, the snipers mostly worked in teams of two, engaging officers and heavy weapon crews.

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Post #: 12
sniper in AI´s hands - 8/7/2003 10:05:31 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		my two cents as scenario maker.

If snipers are used for the AI side in a user made scenario, then they work best if you give them ~100+ experience and low morale of about ~30 to 50. Low morale lets them get pinned and retreat early and thus avoids getting them involved in prolonged firefights with any unit that discovered the sniper! Otherwise..your sniper is dead meat early on. High experience not lets them hit better, it also keeps them hidden a little longer.

Well timed reaction turn settings and waypoints plotted toward the rear also keeps them in the game longer.

In H2H fr mod, especially with the default 60% setting for "searching" in preferences screen you receive realistically behaving snipers in your human vs. AI scenario, if also the above guidelines are followed.:cool:

sorry for off topic.;)

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Post #: 13
Re: *chuckles* - 8/9/2003 6:01:14 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]
. I learned a tough lesson though, that pushed my “formation count” well over 100, so that reinforcements won’t be available for me. [/B][/QUOTE]

hehe. learned that lesson even in 8k game. but as a german player this is quite realistic, german hadn´that much troops anymore in 44+45...

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Post #: 14
- 8/9/2003 8:53:22 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		may be the only thing that keeps me from getting overrun

(in reply to VikingNo2)
Post #: 15
- 8/9/2003 9:46:51 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]may be the only thing that keeps me from getting overrun [/B][/QUOTE]

understatement ?

in my calculations you must have some more tanks left.

i have only that much left because i bought mostly quite cheap ones ( SDKFZ´s and MkIII for example ).

and the germans get a point bonus still in SPWAW because of low experience in 44.

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Post #: 16
- 8/9/2003 10:54:11 PM   
AngryDeemon1

 

Posts: 740
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Swamp, Hellhole (Tampa, Florida)
Status: offline 		Viking, to fix the formation limit problem, during the setup phase, put all your snipers in one place, and use the assign commanding officer button to assign them all to one platoon with the most exped sniper as CO that way 20 formations become one.

(in reply to VikingNo2)
Post #: 17
- 8/10/2003 12:05:36 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Thanks but I think it is a good with out the fix, that should be your penalty for loading up on cheap special units IMHO

If you do that players who play the Russian, could alway overwhelm you:(

(in reply to VikingNo2)
Post #: 18
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