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AI Question - 10/9/2019 4:27:46 PM   
Fintilgin

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline 		As fond as I am of the Strategic Command series, I do sometimes get bored with the AI always following the same script.

Will the AI attempt different grand strategies, or will it just go through the same sequence every time?

Will the Axis AI attempt Sealion?
Will the Allies ever skip Italy and try for an early Overlord?

Things like that?
Post #: 1
RE: AI Question - 10/10/2019 1:36:49 AM   
GenSlack

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 6/14/2001
Status: offline 		From what I've seen of the one guy doing YouTube videos of games vs. the PO, it is supremely awful with no fun factor. Within a few turns of every playthrough that I viewed the PO is already outmaneuvered on a grand scale and the game ruined. Not even a remotely interesting opponent. Without the ability to follow the progress of any PvP games, it is impossible to assess game balance or tell whether the mechanics result in any kind of stimulating and/or plausibly realistic game. I was looking forward to this but no way it is a Day 1 purchase for me. I will await the reports of others.

(in reply to Fintilgin)
Post #: 2
RE: AI Question - 10/10/2019 7:58:05 PM   
waynenh57

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/24/2006
Status: offline 		How old are those YT videos?

(in reply to GenSlack)
Post #: 3
RE: AI Question - 10/10/2019 8:00:01 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Only a few months

(in reply to waynenh57)
Post #: 4
RE: AI Question - 10/10/2019 8:58:23 PM   
stormbringer3

 

Posts: 875
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: Staunton, Va.
Status: offline 		I've been hoping for a game like this for a long time. I only play vs. the AI. I know that a decent AI is not easy to craft. I'm hoping for at an AI that is at least competent to above average and doesn't make serious blunders too many times per game.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 5
RE: AI Question - 10/10/2019 9:02:08 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		In some of his more recent videos the Russian AI pretty much stopped him in his tracks during the winter of '41. Admittedly, he did make mistakes but it seems that the AI is at least good enough to make the Player keep their head in the game and not try to sleep walk through play. PBEM is where this game will shine I think.

_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 6
RE: AI Question - 10/10/2019 11:07:24 PM   
Fintilgin

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GenSlack

From what I've seen of the one guy doing YouTube videos of games vs. the PO, it is supremely awful with no fun factor. Within a few turns of every playthrough that I viewed the PO is already outmaneuvered on a grand scale and the game ruined. Not even a remotely interesting opponent. Without the ability to follow the progress of any PvP games, it is impossible to assess game balance or tell whether the mechanics result in any kind of stimulating and/or plausibly realistic game. I was looking forward to this but no way it is a Day 1 purchase for me. I will await the reports of others.


Oh, I didn't realize there were long forms games on youtube. I will definitely check them out.

As someone who largely exclusively plays against the AI that's disappointing to hear, although not entirely surprising, because I know AI is hard.

(in reply to GenSlack)
Post #: 7
RE: AI Question - 10/11/2019 12:30:20 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GenSlack

From what I've seen of the one guy doing YouTube videos of games vs. the PO, it is supremely awful with no fun factor. Within a few turns of every playthrough that I viewed the PO is already outmaneuvered on a grand scale and the game ruined. Not even a remotely interesting opponent. Without the ability to follow the progress of any PvP games, it is impossible to assess game balance or tell whether the mechanics result in any kind of stimulating and/or plausibly realistic game. I was looking forward to this but no way it is a Day 1 purchase for me. I will await the reports of others.


Yeah, will wait this one out to hear feedback …. though I have high hopes ….

(in reply to GenSlack)
Post #: 8
RE: AI Question - 10/11/2019 1:12:10 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GenSlack
From what I've seen of the one guy doing YouTube videos of games vs. the PO, it is supremely awful with no fun factor.


The "First Look at Beta Build" YouTube video, from back in June almost 4 months ago? A lot of things were updated and improved since beta playtesting started at about that time.

For a new game and initial release, there will be opportunities for more improvements. The AI is in pretty good shape now, certainly much better than 4 months ago. Players should reserve judgement until release and see for themselves.


(in reply to GenSlack)
Post #: 9
RE: AI Question - 10/11/2019 2:01:25 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Very difficult to code an A.I. for a game as deep as WarPlan. It takes time and patient beta testers. It took a very long time to develop the A.I. for SC. It is a very good A.I. for that size game. It works via fuzzy logic and scripting like WarPlan does.

As for different strategies....

The Axis A.I. has 2 major strategies and a couple minor ones. It might do somethings historical if the opportunity and time present itself and it might do other things non-historical. I tried to have the A.I. realize it has no intuition and work around that with its strengths.

The Allied A.I. is more reactionary. But generally there is no multiple path it can take on a large level. It does have some small level non-historical actions depending on the situation.

Like SC WarPlan can only get better.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 10
RE: AI Question - 10/11/2019 3:09:05 PM   
GenSlack

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 6/14/2001
Status: offline 		No, I am talking about the series of them that he's done up to present. Prior to posting, the last one I saw was around 3 weeks old. Seems a little better in the latest 1943 one that I watched yesterday.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 11
RE: AI Question - 10/23/2019 6:02:20 AM   
overkill01

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 12/31/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

The Allied A.I. is more reactionary. But generally there is no multiple path it can take on a large level. It does have some small level non-historical actions depending on the situation.

Like SC WarPlan can only get better.



Will the Allied AI be potent enough to launch a succesfull invasion into Europe when a German player conquered it as they have historically, or will it just sit there in England ? The game looks very promising, and I understand AI is a though nut to crack, but AI makes or breaks a game.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 12
RE: AI Question - 10/23/2019 12:37:46 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		The A.I. invades of course. It does what it is supposed to do.

Keep in mind no A.I. at this size game can beat a human at historical levels. Unity of Command can have a very good A.I. because it is a limited scope game on a small field of battle. But when as many hexes as Europe has with all the dynamics it is very difficult to program well. I am friends with Hubert Cater (SC owner) and we talk about this kind of stuff often enough. I beat SC3 decisively the first time I played.

WarPlan has 4 supply levels and 11 experience levels. One of the beta testers put it a little tougher and he said the A.I. took advantage of it.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to overkill01)
Post #: 13
RE: AI Question - 10/23/2019 3:04:57 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		In general strategy games of this type have far too many variables for the AI to actually work well with.
My opinion always stand that these games are player vs player games, and the AI is just serving the purpose for learning the ropes and to tutor a new player.

That is also proved by the fact that AI levels never make the AI smarter, simply grant the AI superpowers that a player normally would not have. (More resources, added combat modifiers, quicker production, free units, etc).

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 14
RE: AI Question - 10/23/2019 3:27:07 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		A.I. doesn't have the complexity of humans. But giving the A.I. more... whatever... to make it challenging certainly brings a form of entertainment and achievement.

If anyone beats WarPlan at Ubermensch Optimal level I'd be incredibly impressed.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 15
RE: AI Question - 10/24/2019 11:26:26 AM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		In SC3 I've found the AI to be pretty good, considering the type of game that it is - one thing that I've found helps to make it a bit more challenging when playing vs the AI is to try to act as if it was a human player that I'm playing against, in terms of how careful I am, and not exploiting AI weaknesses deliberately (e.g. espc. in the naval aspect of the game).

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 16
RE: AI Question - 10/24/2019 12:28:29 PM   
michaelincol

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 6/17/2009
Status: offline 		Is AI on par with SC AI is a buy or no buy for me who only plays solo and is happy with AI on all SC games?

(in reply to OxfordGuy3)
Post #: 17
RE: AI Question - 10/24/2019 12:32:13 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		I designed AoC and AoD for SC2. I used SC's A.I. model for WarPlan. Hubert helped solidify the ideas.

If you measure everything together they are equal IMO. Each has their own tricks and this is dependent on the game mechanics. WarPlan's A.I. was harder to construct considering the multi-hex attack and naval stacking.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to michaelincol)
Post #: 18
RE: AI Question - 10/24/2019 12:33:23 PM   
michaelincol

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 6/17/2009
Status: offline 		Thx for quick reply and all your hard work. I will buy as soon as released.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 19
RE: AI Question - 10/24/2019 1:10:47 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelincol

Thx for quick reply and all your hard work. I will buy as soon as released.


Same here, that does sound promising about the AI. I hope the AI is reviewed again post-launch, though, after more people have used it, to see if any further improvements can be made.

(in reply to michaelincol)
Post #: 20
RE: AI Question - 10/24/2019 1:39:15 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		A.I. is constantly improved. It's the most enjoyable thing I like working on.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to OxfordGuy3)
Post #: 21
RE: AI Question - 10/24/2019 2:23:01 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

A.I. is constantly improved. It's the most enjoyable thing I like working on.


Glad to hear it! I like PBEM play too, but don't always have time for this and also play vs AI is better for learning and trying out ideas.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 22
RE: AI Question - 10/26/2019 3:34:15 PM   
Dr. Foo


Posts: 666
Joined: 8/31/2004
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I have not invaded Russia yet, but so far the AI doesn't seem to do anything. Poland, Norway and Denmark were a cakewalks. Invaded France and the AI just kept falling back. Took France, Yugo and Greece all with little AI resistance.

Turned to Egypt and the AI did nothing. The UK did not mount any sort of an attack. It just sat there. Once I had enough troops in North Africa I invaded and took Egypt.

Looks like solitaire play is the only way for me. I can't hot seat and PBEM takes too long.

_____________________________

*Warning: Dr. Foo is not an actual doctor.
Do not accept or follow any medical advice*

(in reply to OxfordGuy3)
Post #: 23
RE: AI Question - 10/26/2019 4:55:05 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Give me time tables on the conquests please.

Also specify what do you mean by did nothing. In the minors it really can't. In France it is supposed to delay you as much as possible.

The Egypt thing is something I am working on. Patrolling fleets aren't working correctly for some reason in the scripting.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Dr. Foo)
Post #: 24
RE: AI Question - 10/26/2019 5:54:46 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		PBEM turns take 10-30 minutes per turn, you can get from September 39 to June 40 in two real days easy, in a real week you should be able to crank out 12-30 turns really.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 25
RE: AI Question - 10/26/2019 10:19:58 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		I playtested against the AI on various difficulty level. AI activity is heavily dependent on their units' current effectiveness level and experience level. It's definitely true that the AI will give better resistance and aggressiveness on higher difficulty levels.

I put AI experience levels on Optimal, and push the AI effectiveness levels (supply) way up.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 26
RE: AI Question - 10/27/2019 12:14:59 AM   
Dr. Foo


Posts: 666
Joined: 8/31/2004
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Give me time tables on the conquests please.

Also specify what do you mean by did nothing. In the minors it really can't. In France it is supposed to delay you as much as possible.

The Egypt thing is something I am working on. Patrolling fleets aren't working correctly for some reason in the scripting.


Conquests were earlier than historical but not by much, maybe a month. In France the AI just kept moving backwards and not attacking, I guess this the the delay action. In Yugo they all ran into the mountains and just stayed there leaving the path to Belgrade open.

Greece, the AI just stayed in position and got pummeled.

I expect the above to be easy. But I expect Egypt to be more difficult. I had Italy declare war on the UK historically. All UK units stayed in Egypt and did not attack the Italians despite being at war. Not even air or naval attacks.

I am playing on Historical levels, should I up the levels to get the AI to be more aggressive?


_____________________________

*Warning: Dr. Foo is not an actual doctor.
Do not accept or follow any medical advice*

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 27
RE: AI Question - 10/27/2019 2:13:11 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Generally the more complex the game the harder it is to make a solid A.I. Unity of Command is one map with set objectives and very obvious what needs to be done. The A.I. is fantastic. In games like WarPlan it is far harder. The 1st time I played SC3 I beat the game as either side easily. And that is a seasoned game. I always need to put the experience up.

I would do it automatically for the A.I. but I would rather the player choose how to benefit them for a challenge. Players would notice the difference and complain. So I leave the choices in your hands.

But I am always working on the A.I. Thanks for the feedback on the countries. I am already changing some things.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Dr. Foo)
Post #: 28
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