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Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944

 
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Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/18/2019 2:32:57 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Interesting discussion of how/where/when HIJMS Chikuma and HIJMS Chokai were sunk with all hands along their attendant destroyers. Neat photos too.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/TullyLeyte.pdf
Post #: 1
RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/18/2019 3:00:20 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Interesting view on the Chokai, suspecting her own torpedoes did her in.

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RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/18/2019 5:01:36 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		Anyone know why they were lost with all hands? Seems odd at that point in the war and that part of the ocean.

And even more kudos to Taffy3. If that happened in one of ours games I am sure bloody murder discussion would ensue.

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RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/18/2019 10:38:35 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

Anyone know why they were lost with all hands?


The destroyer that assigned to pick up survivors was sunk with all hands and tried to get through San Bernadino Strait after dark but also after part of TF 34 got back. Several cruisers smashed her to bits firing by radar control.

Not sure which destroyer was assigned to pick up the survivors of Chokai but IIRC it was an air attack that did her in. Apparently a couple of days after the battle off Samar. The article mentions it.

It took a couple of days for the survivors of TAFFY3s sunken ships to get rescued too. Can't remember the specifics that well but I remember reading about it in "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" which covers TAFFY 3s battle in detail. Great book.

< Message edited by spence -- 11/18/2019 10:39:40 PM >

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RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/19/2019 2:48:55 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Anyone know why they were lost with all hands?


The destroyer that assigned to pick up survivors was sunk with all hands and tried to get through San Bernadino Strait after dark but also after part of TF 34 got back. Several cruisers smashed her to bits firing by radar control.

Not sure which destroyer was assigned to pick up the survivors of Chokai but IIRC it was an air attack that did her in. Apparently a couple of days after the battle off Samar. The article mentions it.

It took a couple of days for the survivors of TAFFY3s sunken ships to get rescued too. Can't remember the specifics that well but I remember reading about it in "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" which covers TAFFY 3s battle in detail. Great book.

Any Japanese navy survivors crawling onto the beaches of the central Philippines were butchered by the native Philippinos who had much to avenge...

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RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/19/2019 9:35:25 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		+1 for 'Last Stand' Those DDs and DEs really put up a fight.

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RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/20/2019 12:31:57 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Great find, Spence. Thank you for sharing it-interesting reading.

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RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/20/2019 4:28:38 AM   
ushakov

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/3/2017
Status: offline 		Probably worth noting that there was actually one survivor from the Chikuma, who's mentioned at the end of the report. I haven't been able to find any primary sources, but secondary Japanese records seem to agree that he was left behind when the Nowaki picked up the 100-200 survivors of Chikuma's original sinking, and then drifted alone for three to four days before the USN picked him up. He had no idea of Nowaki's fate until much later.

Must have been a terrible burden, to come home after the war and find he was the only survivor out of 1,000 men.

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RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/20/2019 5:03:41 AM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Interesting discussion of how/where/when HIJMS Chikuma and HIJMS Chokai were sunk with all hands along their attendant destroyers. Neat photos too.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/TullyLeyte.pdf

If you go to the thread below, Tully gives his thoughts on the recently released footage from RV Petrel of the Chokai's wreck and what it might suggest happened to her off Samar.

http://propnturret.com/tully/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4089

Tully states that the (current) wreck evidence runs counter to what was suggested in his original 1998 article regarding the possible explosion of Chokai's loaded torpedo tubes:-

"What the wreck already tells us is that bomb damage is certainly present, but so also is shell fire holes it appears, and evidence of some fire -- but none of the torpedo tube mounts proper exploded. In fact, they don't look to have been loaded and fired, or had fired already, and not yet reloaded. But all are empty. So whatever made CHOKAI un-navigable -- it was not a MIKUMA (or SUZUYA) level of torpedo mount explosions -- despite that having seemed the most likely explanation to date. (Just shows how crucial examining a wreck is if you get that luxury!)".

And as mentioned in many of the ".....Found" threads on the forum, the work of the Paul Allen group is just incredible.

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RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/20/2019 2:15:43 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Interesting discussion of how/where/when HIJMS Chikuma and HIJMS Chokai were sunk with all hands along their attendant destroyers. Neat photos too.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/TullyLeyte.pdf

If you go to the thread below, Tully gives his thoughts on the recently released footage from RV Petrel of the Chokai's wreck and what it might suggest happened to her off Samar.

http://propnturret.com/tully/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4089

Tully states that the (current) wreck evidence runs counter to what was suggested in his original 1998 article regarding the possible explosion of Chokai's loaded torpedo tubes:-

"What the wreck already tells us is that bomb damage is certainly present, but so also is shell fire holes it appears, and evidence of some fire -- but none of the torpedo tube mounts proper exploded. In fact, they don't look to have been loaded and fired, or had fired already, and not yet reloaded. But all are empty. So whatever made CHOKAI un-navigable -- it was not a MIKUMA (or SUZUYA) level of torpedo mount explosions -- despite that having seemed the most likely explanation to date. (Just shows how crucial examining a wreck is if you get that luxury!)".

And as mentioned in many of the ".....Found" threads on the forum, the work of the Paul Allen group is just incredible.

Weren't the Kampon boilers famous for being unreliable and liable to explode when run up to full pressure? That could make a mess below decks.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 10
RE: Fate of the IJN cruisers sunk off Samar on 25 Oct 1944 - 11/20/2019 5:04:01 PM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline 		From what I read they were much less efficient and required considerably more maintenance than contemporary US systems but I don't recall reading about the boilers of first-line Japanese warships being particularly prone to explode (as opposed to fail or lose pressure) under the strain of combat workloads.

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