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Japanese HI Supply - 6/12/2020 4:45:15 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Can I do a straw poll let me know scenario you were playing and whether it was PBEM or v AI

Would like a view on both Supply and Fuel levels in HI in 44 and 45

My only game that got that far was v PZB and he had major issues in 45 but 44 was ok

Feedback appreciated if anyone has any
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/12/2020 4:47:00 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Saves appreciated as well if you have them

a.mcphie@btinternet.com

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/12/2020 5:00:36 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Primarily interested in Scen 1 or 2 games if you have them - my presumption is there isn't an issue but I want to check

The Issue PZB had in our game was pilot driven which Michael corrected in a beta exe so if you could also let me know what exe version you were running that would be helpfull

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/12/2020 5:07:06 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Andy, why do you think this is important?

From reading AARs, it is very clear to me that Japanese players who have supply problems in 1944/45 are entirely to blame for their own reckless expenditures earlier in the war.  They expand their industry unrealistically (which gives them a significant edge in 1942 war production over their opponent) or launch offensive after offensive with no concern for the cost of producing replacement devices.  Any assistance you provide to them will just be frittered away in even more reckless expenditures in 1942.  These are players who as a cohort display a strong tendency to just attack in 1942 and then disappear when the Allied counter attack comes.

If the concern is to ensure the AI has sufficient supply, no one who plays the AI in the Ironman scenarios ever claims that the AI's operations against them is hampered by a lack of supplies.

Alfred 

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/12/2020 5:20:49 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Alfred my presumption is there isn't an issue that's my starting point but I want to do a health check that's all

In a game like this it takes so long to get to 45 I want to take a look.

As I said PZB and I had a major issue but it was mostly pilot driven and Michael solved that for all players.

AI isn't an issue other than scen 1 and possibly 2 the other scenarios well lets just say not an issue....

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Post #: 5
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/12/2020 6:39:07 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		Main issue for PzB was lack of supply. Check end of his AAR, he specifically writes that he can't accumulate enough to make anything constructive, despite still holding whole DEI.

If you at this, you can also reduce manpower production, as there is so much of it, that there is never any shortage.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/12/2020 7:16:36 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		Only full GC we did was with scenario 1, started in 2011 or 2012 (up to date back then, but don’t remember the .exe version). Game ended mid-45. My IJ opponent still had plenty of supplies, but was very conservative and didn’t increase industry very much (nor did he commit much supply to the far reaches of the greater co-prosperity sphere).
OTOH, fuel was, according to him, really scarce in ‘44, as the IJN still had a lot of ships and had to steam them a lot.
And he did suffer from a shortage of armament points (but he said it’s his fault for not increasing those factories, and should have done so early).

So, no real problem, despite us being ordinary players and surely not logistics gurus.

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Post #: 7
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/12/2020 9:59:54 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		There are so many different play styles... IMO it would be hard to draw meaningful conclusions from a limited survey. As Alfred rightly mentioned, players that go all out in the beginning and/or are anxious to have maximum fun immediately will have problems sooner. But they also finish their games less often than average. Then there are Navy type guys who like to run around with their fleets on full speed, aggravating CV/BB gas-guzzler nature. Sometimes it turns out later that the mods they play on had a lot of additional fuel added into the system though :) There are few AARs that are great with their long-term management as well as logistics, running into HI supply problems well into 45 as it should be. But luck also plays a part here with oil damage and supply convoys sinkings.

I think there is no PBEM game where Japan does not have supply problems in the final stages of the game in the 45, and that's fine. Earlier problems more often than not indicate less that stellar strategic management, like over-expansions of industry and airforce or fuel expenditure. AI games are a very different story and should not be an indicator at all methinks.

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Post #: 8
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 12:08:56 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		I won’t have the data for a few years, but I’ve prepared forecasts and have been trying to find that balance between using fuel/supply for operations vs building stockpiles for industry and late war home defence since day 1.
As long as players are aware of these constraints on Japan they can still find ways to enjoy the game.
I feel it’s as it should be, either Japan wins the war early or they risk running out of fuel/supply later.

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Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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Post #: 9
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 1:25:44 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		PZB had an issue because the scenario we played had too MANY Japanese pilots and the HI and supply tax on them crippled his economy

Michael fixed it and went away as an issue.

You are all probably correct and as I said my presumption is its not an issue but I want to poke around a bit if I can :)

(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 7:39:36 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Dang, finicky internet connection just lost me a longer post.

Ach, essentially, all is well. Supply and HI are both tight for the IJ player, but completely manageable by the player in general. It isn't easy, and simply bad luck can put you over the edge, but I think it should be that way.

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Pax

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Post #: 11
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 8:19:12 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		The only thing stopping a Japanese player stomping all over in 1942 is the worry that he might be wasting supply he will need in 44-45.

Echo what Alfred has said, and what Pax has said as well

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Post #: 12
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 10:16:34 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		From my '45 game, supply wasn't a problem in the face of reasonably moderate management and fairly ruthless allocation of it (starve the outlying garrisons, steal as much supply from China/Manchuria/Korea).

The wheels only came off the supply front when the Allied strategic bombers start torching cities and (more importantly IMO) torching supply at major bases via airfield attacks.

I think if you're wanting to make any change to preserve supply situation in that respect, giving the major cities of the Home Islands starting forts of 5/6 may be something to consider given that:

1. It confers no offensive benefit to Japan
2. Removes a serious expenditure for supply for Japan
3. Confers defensive benefit and preservation of supply via protecting airbases/ports from supply hits.

Any thoughts on that?

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 10:35:56 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		Playing the allies against the IJ AI, I find it useful to jump in to the IJN driver's seat now and again - and collect up all the tankers lying idle at Truk and elsewhere, and get them into the DEI to start some convoys back to the HI.

I am guessing that improving the way the AI handles assets and convoys is not now possible, so my thinking is that for an allied player v AI game, it might be simpler to add some oil/refineries a la ironman. That is to say, the basic camapaign for solo allied play should get some bump-ups. On the other hand, a human IJ player should be able to organize this stuff for herself.

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Post #: 14
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 12:57:56 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I think if you're wanting to make any change to preserve supply situation in that respect, giving the major cities of the Home Islands starting forts of 5/6 may be something to consider given that:

1. It confers no offensive benefit to Japan
2. Removes a serious expenditure for supply for Japan
3. Confers defensive benefit and preservation of supply via protecting airbases/ports from supply hits.

Any thoughts on that?


I think this idea has merit. Japan should feel economically constrained, but this would help conserve stockpiles if the Japanese player has carefully managed their resources


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Post #: 15
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 3:43:12 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Andy, why do you think this is important?

From reading AARs, it is very clear to me that Japanese players who have supply problems in 1944/45 are entirely to blame for their own reckless expenditures earlier in the war.  They expand their industry unrealistically (which gives them a significant edge in 1942 war production over their opponent) or launch offensive after offensive with no concern for the cost of producing replacement devices.  Any assistance you provide to them will just be frittered away in even more reckless expenditures in 1942.  These are players who as a cohort display a strong tendency to just attack in 1942 and then disappear when the Allied counter attack comes.

If the concern is to ensure the AI has sufficient supply, no one who plays the AI in the Ironman scenarios ever claims that the AI's operations against them is hampered by a lack of supplies.

Alfred 


Alfred, please note that Andy Mac's request for information is not just about supply but also fuel levels in the HI in 44/45.

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Post #: 16
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 4:36:12 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		My comments re supply equally apply to fuel.

The historical fact is that before Pearl Harbor, Japan lacked the raw materials to continue with its existing military operations/retain territory.  It struck to acquire these assets.  Any Allied comeback, irrespective of the form it takes, is going to bring Japanese access to these war gained raw materials back to the ante bellum levels.  By 1945 against any competent Allied player, Japan should be experiencing raw material shortages.  The extent of those shortages can be mitigated by good Japanese play.  To create a situation which negates this historical truth is contrary to the basic AE game design philosophy of capturing the historical capabilities and dilemmas.

Why was the Yamato sent to Okinawa in 1945 with only sufficient fuel to get there, not to return?
Why did the surviving Combined Fleet units spend almost all of their time in port from 1943 onwards?


Answer is simple, the need to conserve fuel.  Whereas in the game how often do we see Japanese players who do not experience the substantial fleet losses of Coral Sea, Midway, the Solomons campaign all of which had the perverse benefit of reducing demand for fuel, run around the map with their gas guzzlers because they want to shout Banzai!  Players who simultaneously expand their Heavy Industry which also increases the demand for fuel above the historical level.

After Midway, there were only 3 Japanese offensive operations launched:

1.  A shoestring mid 1942 operation of only 15k troops to cross the Owen Stanleys

2.  The 1944 Burma campaign which employed about 90k troops

3.  The 1944 China offensive

None of these operations come anywhere near to matching the size, location and timing of operations launched by Japanese players in the game.  All consume supplies (and fuel) way above the historical consumption rates.

Nor do people admit that Japanese players do extract much greater quantities of raw materials and oil than was achieved historically.  Then there is also the game ahistorical magical highway which can limit historical oil and fuel losses/consumption.

Somehow we are asked to be concerned that poor Japanese play needs to be rewarded by not facing the consequences of their decisions.  Where is the reward for good Japanese play.  I have no sympathy for rewarding poor play.

Alfred

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 17
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 5:37:55 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		For all the reasons and others that Alfred lists I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A PROBLEM

However the game has been out for 10 years and candidly testing out to 44/45 was difficult unless v the AI which had several cheats built in - so I want to take a look and gather experience from players who have had games go out that far my presumption is no issue but lets call it a 10 year MOT just to check.

My own experience with Japanese PBEM players was mixed

In my game with PZB he sank my fleet and reached a Zenith of a Japanese empire rarely matched BUT was hit by a nasty bug that we were amongst he 1st to find and was corrected - so its hard to take data from that long dead game even if I wanted to.


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 18
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/13/2020 6:31:21 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Ask Lowpe and some of the others who have had games go long what there impressions are.

I think that with the manipulation of the Japanese economy, air frame plus engine production, and the supersizing the Japanese Naval air units that the Japanese can be hurting if they are not careful.

One thing that might help is to get better defenses for the Home Islands. If the Marianas are taken earlier than historical and/or Hokkaido is threatened, then defensive reinforcements show up such as more AAA units in the Home Islands. Even if those units are under strength and with older equipment, it would then be up to the player as to how to fill them out.

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Post #: 19
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/14/2020 12:34:56 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I am in Dec-43. Scen01 stock game.

Here my statistics (AS OF AUGUST 1943 - I'll post the Dec-1943 when I'm back home : I didn't realize the screenshot was from an old save ):




To which I add:

FUEL stock : 2,643,934
SUPPLIES stock : 3,932,982




If needed I have monthly economy checks from 07-DEC-1941 to March-1943 and daily checks from May-1943 to December-1943. All in excel.




My enemy is very experienced but it's an extremely peculiar game.


As rule of thumb, I don't move the CVs more than 15 days per-month and I stopped moving BB/CA/CL long time ago. They are all disbanded in Hiroshima/Kure.



I add that, from my perspective, a poll regarding fuel/supplies availability is not really indicative. What I mean is that it is strongly dependent on the course of the match and, most notably, I do believe that there are four main factors:
A) when the DEI-Onshu route gets closed [I take into account at 07/12/1941 that it will be totally closed by 01/06/1944 and I do plan accordingly]
B) naval activities. If you steam around with the KB to sink some goddamn useless xAKs near New Zealand, you might get some satisfaction from the sinkings, but then don't be surprise if you finish the fuel in 1943.
C) production levels. Some players have unreasonably high production levels during 1942, while I am a strong proponent of producing huge quantities of the "final" models. In other terms, many Frank-r in 1943 and few A6M2 in 1942. The problem created by this posture is quite evident: once your A6M2 & co are obsolete, you have to invest again in big factories for more modern planes.
D) entity of land combats. It is usually wiser not to throw away supplies and troops in senseless land fights over senseless positions. I have seen so many pyrrhic victories! Japanese players boasting their great victories, which gave instead no strategic consequences other than a burden over the economy. On the same line, air warfare has to be carefully organised not to strain your economy.

There are of course other factors, such as optimization of sea routes and so on, but I take them for granted.



I do believe that any reasonable Japanese player will face very strong shortages in the late game (1945) and there are constraints over the amount of time that Japanese capital ships can spend at sea or the number of aircraft which can be produced. I am very lavish in my production, but I can afford it. It's why I wanted to intervene, maybe in an excessively harsh way, into the topic over BTS mod: "fantasy" stuff for Japan allows it to play in a very different way, without the limits that it has instead faced during the war. I do remember that I had the paradoxical question "with all these goodies, why would Japan go to war in first instance ?".




A careful player can have well over 5-6M supplies and a good chunk of fuel in its warehouses in mid-1944 in a normal Scen01 setting.





EDIT : I have no clue of the total amount of stuff in the home islands. I don't use the tracker since I find it "diseducative". In general, supplies are quite spread among various frontlines, but OIL/FUEL is mostly back in the home island (Palembang and Singers are kept quite low and there is a very big amount in the Philippines to be shipped back later in the game)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ITAKLinus -- 6/14/2020 1:20:22 PM >

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Francesco

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Post #: 20
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/14/2020 3:47:29 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline 		As promised:

industrial stats at the end of 1943







Attachment (1)

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Francesco

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Post #: 21
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/14/2020 6:04:39 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

As promised:

industrial stats at the end of 1943








These kind of comparisons are very interesting....I am only to December 1942 on DDB-C, which unlike your stock game does NOT have supply production out of Refineries. But it's clear I am running the economy differently already, that's for sure!

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Post #: 22
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/14/2020 6:23:05 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 23
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/14/2020 6:41:19 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

.






? What do you mean? I'm playing scen01 stock

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Francesco

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Post #: 24
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/14/2020 7:15:32 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I was differentiating between your stats and mine, and I'm playing stock. I didn't take note of what you were playing, just thought I should state what I was playing. I put yours up for comparison to a game a year younger. How'd you get all those resources? Capture India?

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Post #: 25
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/14/2020 8:04:25 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I was differentiating between your stats and mine, and I'm playing stock. I didn't take note of what you were playing, just thought I should state what I was playing. I put yours up for comparison to a game a year younger. How'd you get all those resources? Capture India?




Ohhhh sorry I didn't understand!


Yeah, got India and China and it helped a lot



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RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/14/2020 8:14:15 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Chung King is still holding out here.

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Post #: 27
RE: Japanese HI Supply - 6/15/2020 8:06:22 PM   
RADM.Yamaguchi


Posts: 765
Joined: 6/30/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

As promised:

industrial stats at the end of 1943







Hi Linus,
thank you for posting this information. I'm in September 1942 of my PBEM game and i've screwed up my aircraft production so bad but this gives me an idea of what my industry should look like in a year or so. At least i seem on track a bit. Did you increase LI much. I've taken a lot but my numbers are lower.

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Post #: 28
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