Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting

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Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/28/2020 9:16:49 PM

DWReese

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From: Miami, Florida
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Here's a question that I hope that someone has already researched:

I have a plane that will fly from Base (B) to Target (T). The distance is 1000 miles. That is too great for the range of the aircraft, so I will receive either a note that it is too far or the plane just won't ever take off. We all know this.

But, let's say that the distance is actually 500 miles. Now at that distance, the plane can reach the target. So, a MISSION is planned and the plane takes off. Now, comes the question: With the plane already in the air, and with a path already created, what would happen if I alter that path? I know that I can do so, but I've never attempted anything very radical before. What if you edited the plane to fly all 500 miles at 500 feet above ground level? Flying that low would likely mean that the plane can't make it due to a shortage of fuel.

Would it automatically reduce the Speed to Loiter?
Would it defy my 500 foot orders and rise up to a higher altitude?
Would it fly halfway, and abort the mission and RTB?
Would it do exactly what I told it to do and then crash somewhere along the route because it ran out of fuel?

I ask these questions because I know that you can alter/edit courses, and sometimes it is very important to do so. But, how much leeway do you have? Is there anything built in that pops up and tells you WHILE YOU ARE EDITING THE COURSE that it can't do what is being requesting due to a lack of fuel?

What happens in these cases? Does anyone know for sure? I could test it, but that could take hours and if someone has already done this, then I would be more than happy to take their word for the results of their effort. <lol>

Thanks in advance.

Doug

Post #: 1

RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/29/2020 12:44:22 AM

boogabooga

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

What if you edited the plane to fly all 500 miles at 500 feet above ground level? Flying that low would likely mean that the plane can't make it due to a shortage of fuel.

1) Would it automatically reduce the Speed to Loiter?
2) Would it defy my 500 foot orders and rise up to a higher altitude?
3) Would it fly halfway, and abort the mission and RTB?
4) Would it do exactly what I told it to do and then crash somewhere along the route because it ran out of fuel?

Generally, assuming no tankers, what happens is that the planes will hit their BINGO fuel state and RTB automatically with a little excess fuel margin. So they will just go back before they reach their target.

1) Planes will automatically set their speed and altitude according to their loadout settings and possibly mission settings. I've never seen the AI do anything extra for itself to try to extend range. Also, what you are asking isn't necessarily a good idea, assuming that CMO is fairly accurately modeling aircraft performance. 'Cruise' should roughly get you best fuel efficiency per mile while loiter gives you a good fuel efficiency per minute. There is a difference. You would not necessarily go any further with 'loiter'.

2) Possibly. No all aircraft can fly that low and skill level matters. Also, when a plane RTBs, they seem to follow their loadout or possibly mission setting and can be difficult to override. But as for a fully fueled plane on a mission ignoring a human-commanded altitude setting, that is the kind of thing that gets reported in the Tech Support forum. I think the consensus has been- it shouldn't- but there are differences from CMO version-to-version over the last year.

3) yes

4) yes, possible, especially if you over-ride an RTB (BINGO) status, or set up a mission assuming tankers but the tankers never deliver for whatever reason.

< Message edited by boogabooga -- 10/29/2020 12:51:59 AM >

(in reply to DWReese)

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RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/29/2020 1:15:34 AM

pbrowne

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From: Perth, Western Australia
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Interesting. What would happen in real life if flight operations Air Battle Manager changes the mission to suit the commander's intent, that would result in low fuel? Presumably calculations would be performed through systems to determine this in advance?

I guess the problem begs for real time calculations and warnings...

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 10/29/2020 1:33:39 AM >

(in reply to boogabooga)

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RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/29/2020 1:39:48 AM

DWReese

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From: Miami, Florida
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Thanks for responding, but I believe that I might not have conveyed my message properly.

The AI will automatically adjust planes to a slower speed. I have seen that often. It often occurs when the planes are headed home. The AI usually has them fly at Full Speed, and you will often get a message that the speed is being reduced so that the plane doesn't run out of fuel. So, that is definitely happening. I have not seen the plane speed be adjusted prior to the strike.

On that premise then, I am merely wondering how far it would go before something else kicked in? If the AI drew the flight path directly into a dangerous area covered by high-shooting SAMs, then the attacker would definitely want to hug the earth. Being low means that the SAM can't shoot at it. Being high means that it can. But, when the AI is drawing up the flight path it doesn't take into account that the SAM is there. It is up to the player to adjust the altitude, otherwise you are allowing the AI to draw the path, but it is risking your plane for no reason.

My questions pertain to "how far can you push it before it would do any of the four things that I mentioned?" I'm merely trying to see the extent that your orders would be carried out. It's good to know these things if you are designing scenarios. That's why I was hoping that someone had actually tested this.

Doug

(in reply to boogabooga)

Post #: 4

RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/29/2020 1:45:34 AM

DWReese

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Yes, the AI will calculate the Flight Path ahead of time. But, it does so without taking into consideration as to where the enemy SAMs are, and what type your plane will be facing. If this information is know, which it often is, then it would behoove the player to redraw the Flight Path to avoid these areas as best as possible. But, that's difficult to do because you really don't have any kind of idea how far a plane can fly at various altitudes, and how much fuel that they will burn. This is especially true if the aircraft is flying high, then low, then high again, with various speed changes built in.

In any case, I was hoping to see if someone had tried this out already. It would save a lot of time.

Doug

(in reply to pbrowne)

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RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/29/2020 2:34:30 AM

pbrowne

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Then it would be useful to see real time fuel calculations when redrawing the flight path in-flight? This is basically what I said in my last post. I imagine that this would reflect real-world situations for flight computers?

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 10/29/2020 2:40:17 AM >

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RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/29/2020 2:44:15 AM

pbrowne

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Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I also imagine that having real time fuel calculations shown to the player, would be a learning aid in understanding factors affecting fuel consumption as indicated by boogabooga.

(in reply to pbrowne)

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RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/29/2020 10:48:54 AM

DWReese

Posts: 1824
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From: Miami, Florida
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I went ahead and tested some things:

In the first test, I took an F-16, armed with bombs with a range of about 300 miles, and sent it out to blow up some buildings. After the path to the target (270 miles) had been created by the AI, I manually altered the path, stretching it out, so that it slightly exceeded 300 miles. The plane hit BINGO about 40 miles out, but continued on. It bombed all of the targets, and then headed home. Apparently, the plane used its Reserve fuel to accomplish its mission.

In the second test, I did the same thing, but this time told the plane to fly the whole course at 200 AGL. Again, it hit BINGO long before it reached the target. The plane had 5 buildings to hit with 6 bombs. The plane dropped 3 bombs and then aborted the mission. The message indicated that it had jettisoned its ordinance, and needed to fly back to conserve fuel. At that point, it climbed to 36k feet, and flew back at Cruise speed (480 kts). (You have to have the option box called "jettison ordinance" checked.)

That's as far as I have been able to go for now. I intend on stretching the parameters a little further each time, working toward a situation to see what can happen when the plane is finally presented with an impossible set of circumstances to complete the mission.

Doug

(in reply to pbrowne)

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RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/29/2020 4:21:02 PM

DWReese

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As a follow=up to my last batch of testing:

If the plane is assigned to a mission and the range is too far, then you will get a message that says that the range is too far, and since there are no tankers assigned, the mission will not launch. This was expected.

The next test had the plane be assigned to bomb a target which was in range. Upon taking off, I immediately changed the flight path to something outrageous. Instead of being within the 300 nm (actual range of the plane to the target), I changed the flight path to fly about 600 nm to the target. Since the flight path had been generated by the AI, it apparently knows that the plane can handle that, so it allows the plane to continue on its path, even though the path is taking the plane far away from its target. BINGO fuel comes quickly, yet the plane continues on. Eventually the plane runs out of fuel and crashes. This is significant. It means that there is no Fail Safe for planes with paths heading TOWARD the target.

If you recall, in yesterday's test, a plane already in the process of dropping its ordinance WILL abort its mission and RTB if the duel is low, but this test proves that that Fail Safe does not exist for planes headed TO their target if the path has been altered. Again this is significant because you have to be careful when altering a flight path. Even though the program allows you to alter the course, it won't guarantee that the plane can make it there even if it has already launched from its base.

Doug

(in reply to DWReese)

Post #: 9

RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/30/2020 1:28:25 AM

KungPao

Posts: 333
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From: Red China
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

As a follow=up to my last batch of testing:

If the plane is assigned to a mission and the range is too far, then you will get a message that says that the range is too far, and since there are no tankers assigned, the mission will not launch. This was expected.

The next test had the plane be assigned to bomb a target which was in range. Upon taking off, I immediately changed the flight path to something outrageous. Instead of being within the 300 nm (actual range of the plane to the target), I changed the flight path to fly about 600 nm to the target. Since the flight path had been generated by the AI, it apparently knows that the plane can handle that, so it allows the plane to continue on its path, even though the path is taking the plane far away from its target. BINGO fuel comes quickly, yet the plane continues on. Eventually the plane runs out of fuel and crashes. This is significant. It means that there is no Fail Safe for planes with paths heading TOWARD the target.

If you recall, in yesterday's test, a plane already in the process of dropping its ordinance WILL abort its mission and RTB if the duel is low, but this test proves that that Fail Safe does not exist for planes headed TO their target if the path has been altered. Again this is significant because you have to be careful when altering a flight path. Even though the program allows you to alter the course, it won't guarantee that the plane can make it there even if it has already launched from its base.

Doug

That's weird, I noticed that at current game version 1147.13 too. the strike package will contiune heading to target after bingo fuel (But escort will RTB)

I remember in pervious version, the strike A/C will RTB as soon as it reaches Bingo fuel. Something broken in recent update?

_____________________________

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(in reply to DWReese)

Post #: 10

RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/30/2020 2:08:48 AM

DWReese

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I don't know if it's broken or not. Perhaps they have changed it, but it does appear to be working differently. Perhaps a dev can read this and advise if this is how it should be, or verify that something has changed. It seems different to me.

Doug

(in reply to KungPao)

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RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/30/2020 2:02:09 PM

KungPao

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
Apparently, the plane used its Reserve fuel to accomplish its mission.

Yes, it is reserved fuel and the game mechanism save the day . The fuel consumption drop off after the weapon release, we just don't know how this was calculated (probably mulitpe by a coefficient)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Yes, the AI will calculate the Flight Path ahead of time. But, it does so without taking into consideration as to where the enemy SAMs are, and what type your plane will be facing. If this information is know, which it often is, then it would behoove the player to redraw the Flight Path to avoid these areas as best as possible. But, that's difficult to do because you really don't have any kind of idea how far a plane can fly at various altitudes, and how much fuel that they will burn. This is especially true if the aircraft is flying high, then low, then high again, with various speed changes built in.

In any case, I was hoping to see if someone had tried this out already. It would save a lot of time.

Doug

We will need some experienment and calculation. But right now based on my experience and feeling I will just take a "two thrid" approach.
For example if an A/C loadout has a Low-Low-Low profile , strike range 270nm. I won't assign it to any target further than 180nm. This should give me enough fuel to manervour through mountains, zig zag through SAM sites.
another approach is I will strike a target at 250nm away, but I will manually change the inbound altitude to high alt. then make it back to defult low altitude before IP.

Drag WP to make your own flightpath is fun. But a lot of time I am experience a problem. My A/C could totally ignore a WP and heading to the next WP instead. That caused alot of frustration.

< Message edited by KungPao -- 10/30/2020 2:03:10 PM >

_____________________________

Sir? Do you want to order a Kung Pao Chicken or a Kung Fu Chicken?

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RE: Game Question--Aircraft Range and Mission Plotting - 10/30/2020 5:53:15 PM

DWReese

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From: Miami, Florida
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quote:

Drag WP to make your own flightpath is fun. But a lot of time I am experience a problem. My A/C could totally ignore a WP and heading to the next WP instead. That caused alot of frustration.

Yes, it is. Some of those tutorials that Gunner made necessitate that the aircraft fly low, and use the terrain to mask their approach to the target. If you merely allowed the AI to plot a mission course and path then your plane would be destroyed. By mapping out your course, and altering the altitude, you can literally allow the AI to handle it all after you have selected the new designated path and altitude. That's fun. But, if you left it up to the AI, then you're dead. <lol>

Doug

(in reply to KungPao)

Post #: 13