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Colors for counters - 2/22/2019 10:11:25 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		This is neat URL:

http://hataka-hobby.com/category/zestawy-farb/

Once there, keep clicking on the product images, they'll grow full size and display the colors their firm think matches various AFV and aircraft over different historical periods. Note the full size is a slide show; keep paging through to see the color samples.

These images can be loaded into a paint type of program. I use NeoPaint, and it identifies the color components of any given color. This information can be used with the procedure outlined by Bob Cross if one wishes to color counters with period military colors.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/22/2019 10:14:15 AM >
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RE: Colors for counters - 2/22/2019 10:13:29 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Example of the firm's suggestions for Soviet AFVs in the GPW.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/22/2019 10:15:56 AM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Colors for counters - 2/22/2019 10:18:05 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Wow, that's way cool beans, thanks a lot.

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RE: Colors for counters - 2/22/2019 7:02:16 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Hi Larry,

Here is an example from the Soviet color scheme seen above.



Takes a bit of dabbling, but fun to see the results.

Cheers

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Post #: 4
RE: Colors for counters - 2/22/2019 7:10:22 PM   
larryfulkerson


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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
Hi Larry,

Here is an example from the Soviet color scheme seen above.
Takes a bit of dabbling, but fun to see the results.

Cheers



Wow, that looks really great. Keep up the good work. I like that a lot. A lot more realistic.

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Post #: 5
RE: Colors for counters - 2/22/2019 7:17:24 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
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Status: offline 		Hi Larry,

Might be fun to crank out a few and document the .col numbers used for anyone who wants to use them. It would be a nice break from lab runs.

Cheers

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Post #: 6
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 2:31:02 AM   
larryfulkerson


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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
Hi Larry,

Might be fun to crank out a few and document the .col numbers used for anyone who wants to use them. It would be a nice break from lab runs.

Cheers

That would be really helpful, thanks, yes please. You're encouraging me to see if I can't do something with the D21 units. Have you given any thought to redoing the counters for the scenario FITE? Which is your favorite scenario?...maybe do that one next.

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Post #: 7
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 5:32:39 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Hi Larry,

Question for you. As far as colors for counter numbers go, which ones might be problems? I'm wondering about the colored stripes that are placed on the units when they are in formation reorganization, etc.

Here's another stab at colors. This one is so subtle it would be hard to read IMO. Based on the colors of the SS autumn camo pattern of 1942.



Cheers

On edit: Another concern is unit cooperation as it is based on unit colors IIRC.

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/23/2019 6:09:56 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 7:26:04 AM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

cooperation

No worries, the program doesn't actually 'see' colors, it reads the icon slot #.

EDIT: Of course, changing colors could confuse a player as to what cooperation levels exist

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 2/23/2019 7:27:17 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 8:13:21 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

cooperation

No worries, the program doesn't actually 'see' colors, it reads the icon slot #.

EDIT: Of course, changing colors could confuse a player as to what cooperation levels exist


Hey, thanks for that. As clarification, does that imply, for example, that the program 'sees' slots numbers 0 to 4 as having certain cooperation properties [edit: force support] (I'm guessing based on the default color scheme used)?

Check on player confusion. That would be frustrating to not be able to readily judge cooperation potential.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/23/2019 8:14:18 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 10:48:23 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		I don't know how the code is worded, but it is based on the chart seen below [taken from the Editor]. The numbers at top and bottom were added and coincide with the lines in the .col files.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 11
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 10:54:58 AM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

cooperation

No worries, the program doesn't actually 'see' colors, it reads the icon slot #.



This, for me, is a shortcoming of the game engine. It should read the color not the color slot. If it read the color then you could have a multitude of different formation colors with differing cooperation levels and give a scenario designer more flexibility. I don't think it would take that much work to program a function that does that. At the very least each side should have it's own series of color slots instead of both sides using the same 'chart' thereby doubling the possible colors available.

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Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 12
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 11:19:56 AM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline 		AS for TOAW4, the developers should have made the game easier to mod, with an improved editor and better interface.

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Post #: 13
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 11:46:10 AM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline 		in some long scenarios, the colors seem to have influence with the reinforcements like in D21 or FITE, but nobody knows 100% sure, all is always guessing

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The most comprehensive website on the IJN Imperial Japanese Navy Y:"Let us enjoy the beauty of the moon (sinking aboard Hiryu)

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Post #: 14
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 12:39:23 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I don't know how the code is worded, but it is based on the chart seen below [taken from the Editor]. The numbers at top and bottom were added and coincide with the lines in the .col files.





Thanks for the image. Allow me to re-phrase my question(s). Looking at that image, my understanding is that the first column on the left allows force support cooperation because the background color is the same. Is that correct?

Question 2. Were I to take that background color from the first column on the left and use it in another column, the force cooperation would not be the same because TOAW doesn't read the color, just the slot assignment? (And players would wonder why their cooperation was not as they expect)

Thanks to all for the comments.

Cheers

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Post #: 15
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 12:51:29 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		See this: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4574206

2) Exactly and unfortunately. It's one of the few things that would be somewhat easy to change with the current game engine but I wouldn't count on it.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 16
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 12:54:32 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

AS for TOAW4, the developers should have made the game easier to mod, with an improved editor and better interface.


Just to be clear because you seem to continually think the guys working on this just wave a wand to change things. This is a very old game. It was never meant to be modded. So to make it that way would require an entire rewrite of the game. It took many many hours to get it this far. And the 'devs' is one guy with one other guy helping.

There are a few things that can be modded but not much. Mostly just for looks.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 2/23/2019 12:55:53 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to fulcrum28)
Post #: 17
RE: Colors for counters - 2/23/2019 1:25:43 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

See this: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4574206

2) Exactly and unfortunately. It's one of the few things that would be somewhat easy to change with the current game engine but I wouldn't count on it.


Thanks Lobster. Saved a copy of the page you linked to as well.

Cheers

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Post #: 18
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 10:52:22 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		So here goes with the .col file, entries zero through four. Comments and suggestions welcome.

Format is the image, inspiration for the colors, and the entry in the .col file if anyone would like to use them.


Base color for all five is Feldgrau. Colors taken from German Army uniform.
<COLOR ID="0" MainBackground="5070163" Background="5592392" Foreground="12632256" Numbers="12632256"/>


Colors taken from Afrika Korps uniform.
<COLOR ID="1" MainBackground="5070163" Background="13147202" Foreground="13356179" Numbers="13356179"/>


Colors taken from Luftwaffe uniform and aircraft. (The orange-yellow is from a rank insignia).
<COLOR ID="2" MainBackground="5070163" Background="3947331" Foreground="16763651" Numbers="12045269"/>


Colors taken from SS camouflage patterns.
<COLOR ID="3" MainBackground="5070163" Background="9990747" Foreground="10461246" Numbers="12415798"/>


Colors are sky and German aircraft colors.
<COLOR ID="4" MainBackground="5070163" Background="8900346" Foreground="2700841" Numbers="12045269"/>

Cheers

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Post #: 19
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 11:05:28 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Thanks a lot for this. You know it just occurs to me that these entries
"fit" the scenario that matches these COLOR ID numbers but you can still
use these colors if you just adjust the COLOR ID to match your scenario.

_____________________________

If we're all created in the image of god then why aren't we all invisible?

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Post #: 20
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 11:14:55 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for the comment, Larry. The toughest part is figuring out how the colors work with each other. I think I went through these five times before I obtained the results posted here.

Cheers

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Post #: 21
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 3:44:12 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Because the colors are read by column you can even change those background colors and not have an effect on cooperation level. This is the plus about using color position over using color number. But it's not much of a plus.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 22
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 4:46:36 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Because the colors are read by column you can even change those background colors and not have an effect on cooperation level. This is the plus about using color position over using color number. But it's not much of a plus.


Hi Lobster,

I'm wary of confusing things for the players, but ... I'm typically using the last of a column of five for aircraft, and freeing up one color would allow me to include another color painted on the aircraft.

Cheers

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 23
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 4:57:07 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		.col entries 005 through 009 (second column)
Base counter color is one used on Soviet World War II AFVs.


Colors taken from World War II Soviet AFVs and flag.
<COLOR ID="5" MainBackground="4541738" Background="6839100" Foreground="16581378" Numbers="16581378"/>


As with 005, but icon background color taken from Soviet field uniform ca. 1970s.
<COLOR ID="6" MainBackground="4541738" Background="11185786" Foreground="16581378" Numbers="16581378"/>


As with 005, but icon background color taken from the blue used on NKVD headgear.
<COLOR ID="7" MainBackground="4541738" Background="4078985" Foreground="16581378" Numbers="16581378"/>


Colors taken from Soviet Guards insignia.
<COLOR ID="8" MainBackground="4541738" Background="16766720" Foreground="16581378" Numbers="16581378"/>


Colors taken from Soviet flag and early World War II aircraft.
<COLOR ID="9" MainBackground="4541738" Background="4608309" Foreground="16581378" Numbers="11712956"/>

Cheers

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 24
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 7:03:03 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
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Status: offline 		.col entries 010 through 014 (third column)
Base counter color is one used on French World War II AFVs.


Colors taken from French 1940 AFVs and uniform.
<COLOR ID="10" MainBackground="7224113" Background="7697488" Foreground="13200128" Numbers="14724713"/>


As with 010, but includes U.S. olive drab for French 1944-45 forces.
<COLOR ID="11" MainBackground="7224113" Background="6051648" Foreground="14724713" Numbers="14724713"/>


As with 010, but one color drawn from Vichy-era uniform.
<COLOR ID="12" MainBackground="7224113" Background="4219725" Foreground="9731162" Numbers="14724713"/>


As with 010, but unit symbol colors are of the flag of Morocco (colonial troops).
<COLOR ID="13" MainBackground="7224113" Background="12722729" Foreground="25136" Numbers="14724713"/>


Colors drawn from French 1940 aircraft.
<COLOR ID="14" MainBackground="7224113" Background="4751186" Foreground="8753819" Numbers="10796484"/>

Cheers

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Post #: 25
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 8:39:13 PM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

The toughest part is figuring out how the colors work with each other. I think I went through these five times before I obtained the results posted here.

Yeah, the new process is only good for getting the gradient right the first time, for everything else it is garbage to work with and should only be an option. Instead it was forced on us and we have no choice. Well, we do have a choice, don't use TOAW IV

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Post #: 26
RE: Colors for counters - 2/24/2019 8:42:03 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
quote:

The toughest part is figuring out how the colors work with each other. I think I went through these five times before I obtained the results posted here.

Yeah, the new process is only good for getting the gradient right the first time, for everything else it is garbage to work with and should only be an option. Instead it was forced on us and we have no choice. Well, we do have a choice, don't use TOAW IV

I'd really like to see if the development team can make the coloring of units a LOT easier to use.

_____________________________

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Post #: 27
RE: Colors for counters - 2/25/2019 10:58:30 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 454
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Status: offline 		Kudos for the effort, however I find many of the examples very hard tlon my eyes. The French 1940 airplane (hard to read) or the Soviet schema (the fluorescent red is really hurting my eyes).


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Post #: 28
RE: Colors for counters - 2/25/2019 1:45:15 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Kudos for the effort, however I find many of the examples very hard tlon my eyes. The French 1940 airplane (hard to read) or the Soviet schema (the fluorescent red is really hurting my eyes).



gliz2, thanks for the comments. The Soviet red is quite bright. I can take a look at other versions that could be optionally put into the .col file. Interesting how personal color perception is. I find some of the combos a bit jarring but nothing physically hard to look at.

Cheers

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 29
RE: Colors for counters - 2/25/2019 3:24:06 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		.col entries 015 through 019 (column 4)
Base counter color is one used on British Battledress uniform.


Colors taken from Battledress uniform.
<COLOR ID="15" MainBackground="6114350" Background="10322792" Foreground="13281612" Numbers="13281612"/>


Colors taken from uniform worn by West African soldier (colonial).
<COLOR ID="16" MainBackground="6114350" Background="6313559" Foreground="10984542" Numbers="13281612"/>


Colors taken from British desert uniform.
<COLOR ID="17" MainBackground="6114350" Background="10984542" Foreground="15843711" Numbers="13281612"/>


Colors taken from British jungle uniform.
<COLOR ID="18" MainBackground="6114350" Background="7368780" Foreground="10984542" Numbers="13281612"/>


Colors taken from RAF aircraft.
<COLOR ID="19" MainBackground="6114350" Background="6782317" Foreground="4080950" Numbers="10728337"/>

Cheers

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 30
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