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Operational losses and pilot losses always equal

 
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Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 3:25:25 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		I have been running tests using the Road to Leningrad scenario and have found a one-to-one ratio of plane losses to operational losses. In other words, every single operational loss results in the loss of the pilot. This seems wrong. (Note: this is about the German side. On the Soviet side the number of pilots lost is lower than the number of planes lost since a large portion of the planes lost are on the ground.)

< Message edited by CapAndGown -- 3/29/2021 3:26:52 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 5:20:05 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Its WAD. Soviet KIA will be the same once they actually start to fly.

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 2
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 7:55:09 AM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 3/25/2021
Status: offline 		Are you sure this is appropriate?

I have been noticing significantly higher German pilot losses to Soviet ones.

For example currently I have;

Germans Planes lost - 2,233, pilots lost 2,139

Soviets planes lost - 9,205, pilots lost 5,330.

While the soviets have lost planes on the ground [2,820] this still means they're taking a noticably smaller selection of pilot losses. Additionally presumably Airbase destruction should result in some pilot loses?

And a lot of operational loses are breakdowns and bad landings a 1:1 ratio of pilot loss here seems very excessive. It means for example, a pilot can never outlive their aircraft, and is more likely to die from mechanical failure than being shot down over enemy territory.

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 3
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 8:08:32 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		I am sure its not but its also not my call, dont shot the messanger. It have been discussed in dev forum some time ago.

(in reply to AdmiralHalsey)
Post #: 4
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 8:43:55 AM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 3/25/2021
Status: offline 		Would definately appreciate a designer weighing in here then!

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 5
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 8:49:01 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Considering the chances of escape on Eastern Front over enemy territory...

But yes, it should be bit different.

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to AdmiralHalsey)
Post #: 6
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 8:43:41 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The ratio of surviving pilots was not something we were focused on and we were using formulas used in WitW (if not WitE). It was raised at some point in testing, but by that time we had balanced the pilot replacements with the losses we were getting and we liked the results we were getting overall. The formulas are the same as those used in WitW, and I see in WitW we had similar high losses for the attacking side. This is something we can look to adjust in the future, but it will require a major effort to rebalance with lower pilot losses. We'd probably be reducing the number of trained pilots which would mean that existing games with a reduction in pilot losses would have too many good pilots (unless we found a way to only use the code change in a new game with the lower replacements). We'd like to see how the air war goes in a greater sample of games before we start trying to work on changing things.

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(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 7
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 8:49:27 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The ratio of surviving pilots was not something we were focused on and we were using formulas used in WitW (if not WitE). It was raised at some point in testing, but by that time we had balanced the pilot replacements with the losses we were getting and we liked the results we were getting overall. The formulas are the same as those used in WitW, and I see in WitW we had similar high losses for the attacking side. This is something we can look to adjust in the future, but it will require a major effort to rebalance with lower pilot losses. We'd probably be reducing the number of trained pilots which would mean that existing games with a reduction in pilot losses would have too many good pilots (unless we found a way to only use the code change in a new game with the lower replacements). We'd like to see how the air war goes in a greater sample of games before we start trying to work on changing things.


Thank you for the insight. It is great to hear from one of the developers about why certain mechanics work the way they do.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 8
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 9:35:37 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		The current situation penalizes nations with limited pilot reinforcements and favors those with larger replacements. they'll potentially lose a lot more more good pilots than receiving trained reinforcements so their overall quality goes down faster than historical.

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 9
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 10:08:07 PM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 3/25/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

The current situation penalizes nations with limited pilot reinforcements and favors those with larger replacements. they'll potentially lose a lot more more good pilots than receiving trained reinforcements so their overall quality goes down faster than historical.


This aligns with my concerns. German pilots are going to be savaged if every broken down plane kills a pilot. Operational losses should have relatively little lethality, and in the early war make up a large % of German loses.

The soviets meanwhile, don't care nearly so much.

I do appreciate the design insight though! We'll see how it shakes out.

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 10
RE: Operational losses and pilot losses always equal - 3/29/2021 10:18:00 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Operational losses may also contain planes failing to return due to battle damage and the pilot was either unable to parachute or chose to stay in his a/c, tring to reach base, until it was too late.
Plus crashing due to pilot error or engine failure is very lethal especially on takeoff or landing.

(in reply to AdmiralHalsey)
Post #: 11
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