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On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 2:40:15 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline 		ON demand Motorization of a Division, in my opinion, is broken. Please see this AAR starting at post #33,

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5008162&mpage=2&key=

Let the forum know what you think after reading the AAR about on demand motorization. In my opinion it is cheesy and breaks the game. But I can be totally missing something. Please post here or in the AAR.
Post #: 1
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 5:38:36 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline 		The motorization should have a delay imo. First the player sets the motorization, the division gains the trucks (if available, can gain more in logistics phase) but does not gain any extra MP. Next turn, the division is motorized and gains MP normally as all other motorized units, with same requirements (fuel gained in this logistics phase, leader rolls etc.) and restrictions (Soviet MP restrictions, fuel, fatigue etc).

The AP cost could be lower with this rule set.

Instant 48MP Soviet rifle divisions and German regular infantry lunging hundreds of miles in hostile territory doesn't sound good to me. I know the AP and truck costs are restrictive but the benefits gained seem overpowered (see HLYA AAR).

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 2
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 7:33:45 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
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Status: offline 		I disagree, they are week long turns. Leave as is.

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Post #: 3
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 7:46:27 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		I seemed to recall a time that when you motorized a unit it only had half the MP of the motorized unit - not the full amount - on that turn. When you de-motorized the unit you were left with only half the foot MP.

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Post #: 4
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 8:43:56 PM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I disagree, they are week long turns. Leave as is.


The turn length really has nothing to do with it. How does it make sense that a temporarily motorized Soviet rifle division can move 35% further than any other Soviet specialized motorized formation until Dec 1942, even on turn 1?

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 5
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 9:01:11 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline 		I think this is ripe to exploit. I believe I'll lean on it in the Red Army Resurgent scenario I just started to show how much power it offers.
Apologies in advance to my opponent.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 6
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 9:07:40 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		I think there should be a time delay involved. You can't just suddenly pull a motorized division's worth of trucks out of your nether regions. (Well, maybe the Americans could, but I don't see it for the Germans or Soviets.) I think it should cost some amount of SMP to motorize. Say 25% (50 points). So you could motorize at the start of the turn and gain some benefit, or you could move regularly and then motorize for the full benefit the following turn. Insta-motorization, OTOH, strikes me as off.

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Post #: 7
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 10:41:46 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I think this is ripe to exploit. I believe I'll lean on it in the Red Army Resurgent scenario I just started to show how much power it offers.
Apologies in advance to my opponent.


It has a TON of power and many are missing just how "powerful" this is. I was going to show it in one of my games but many ignore my AAR's or don't pay attention to what I say. I could have easily shown the power and all would have missed it. Hopefully when you do this # 1. People see just how devastating this is # 2. you give your opponent a fresh restart without using the motorization ;-)

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Post #: 8
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/1/2021 11:19:51 PM   
governato

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

The turn length really has nothing to do with it. How does it make sense that a temporarily motorized Soviet rifle division can move 35% further than any other Soviet specialized motorized formation until Dec 1942, even on turn 1?


And it'd certainly need some planning aaaand some time to get the trucks wherever they are needed. Russia is vast so a one week delay seems appropriate (unless all the nearby units also suddenly lose their trucks!).

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 9
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 1:56:27 AM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
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From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Perhaps something simple like half the increase on the turn you do it and the following turn treated like a permanently motorized would be enough. It might still be excessive, but a movement of 30 is a lot different from 45.

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Post #: 10
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 2:00:19 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I think this is ripe to exploit. I believe I'll lean on it in the Red Army Resurgent scenario I just started to show how much power it offers.
Apologies in advance to my opponent.


When shall we see the pictures? Or should I start working on a scenario showing how "EXPLOITABLE" this really is since I know the deadliness of this.

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 11
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 6:17:29 AM   
Hardradi


Posts: 571
Joined: 2/9/2011
Status: offline 		I agree, needs to be limited. You can outflank the thin German lines, get pocketed by the Germans, open the pocket with a one hex width and then motorise the unit that's behind the enemy. This allows you to wreck havoc in the rear cutting their supply lines and evening pushing for major rail lines and depots.

I just did this in Road to Leningrad in the Velike Luki region. It looked like I had enough movement to push all the way to Pskov in T13 or just go for a rail cut with ZOC. I thought it was a bit 'gamey' and headed south to Velike Luki instead.

Playing as the Germans though, I was ready for any such move from my opponent and made sure I could head off the attack.

Is it a matter of adjusting play style?



(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 12
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 8:22:07 AM   
Gam3r

 

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quote:


Let the forum know what you think after reading the AAR about on demand motorization. In my opinion it is cheesy and breaks the game. But I can be totally missing something. Please post here or in the AAR.


It is pretty much what happened in real life, except that all mobilized trucks were used for troops movement in rear area.


There is no such thing IRL as convert hexes, so no reason to charge forward.

I suggest that temporary motorized RD should pay more MP for entering enemy hexes in JUNE41, that should fix that problem, while allow to retreat, or advance forward in own territory

UPD:
even better, Any motorised unit that don't have motorcycle recon squad ib their TOE should pay more MP for entering enemy territory.
So designated moto units should have moto reckon, while foot units - should not.


< Message edited by Gam3r -- 5/2/2021 8:50:25 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 8:27:50 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
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Status: offline 		I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:


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Post #: 14
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 8:30:53 AM   
Gam3r

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: governato

And it'd certainly need some planning aaaand some time to get the trucks wherever they are needed. Russia is vast


It is planned economy. Every factory, firm, collective farm, etc - reports to STAVKA. Truck arrive to units from economy from day one.

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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 10:22:10 AM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

quote:

ORIGINAL: governato

And it'd certainly need some planning aaaand some time to get the trucks wherever they are needed. Russia is vast


It is planned economy. Every factory, firm, collective farm, etc - reports to STAVKA. Truck arrive to units from economy from day one.


The Red Army & Soviet economy wasn't exactly the well-oiled machine that the Communist Party and Uncle Joe wished it to be.

The game quite accurately depicts how the trucks DO NOT arrive to the middle of Siberian countryside, neither for SU or the Germans. The temporary motorization rule however breaks the logistics rules in a way that I think it's not supposed to.

(in reply to Gam3r)
Post #: 16
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 11:12:33 AM   
Gam3r

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

The Red Army & Soviet economy wasn't exactly the well-oiled machine that the Communist Party and Uncle Joe wished it to be.



There can be a lengthy debate over whether or not the combat units could have received trucks from the civilian sector.

We can definitely agree with this, and I have already suggested above - units without motorized reconnaissance element in their TOE will spent more MP when enter the hex controlled by the enemy.

It is logical to first send motorcyclists to recon enemy held territory, and then a convoy of trucks. Recon on friendly territory is not needed.
So temporary motorized leg-infantry can move fast in own hexes, and slow in enemy hexes - they do not have recon in their TOE.

And this in fact support my narrative. You CAN recieve trucs from civilian sector pretty easy, but you CAN'T recive motorcycles.




< Message edited by Gam3r -- 5/2/2021 11:25:51 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 11:21:29 AM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77
... The temporary motorization rule however breaks the logistics rules in a way that I think it's not supposed to.


I don't think this is the case, I just tried to motorise something that is a long way from a depot and there weren't enough trucks, so they don't appear out of the ether.

some wider observations - I think in both WiTW and WiTE2 testing, for some reason people were not using temp motorisation. I guess put off by the admin cost and the truck demand. So I don't think this has been explored really for balance and I'd hesitate to call 'exploit' till the benefits and costs are understood.

In WiTW I now tend to perm-motorise a couple of Allied divisions in Italy and say 3 for France (the US ones are relatively cheap), I don't think its game breaking more it prevents the axis player knowing exactly what your potential mobility is on a given sector. Now that translates poorly to WiTE2 simply due to geography - there are far more hexes etc.

I'd suggest a good compromise is lower cv and some sort of MP malus. In the end these are not trained motorised infantry formations and presumably are using a mix of vehicles, so they really shouldn't be as good as specialists in the role?

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Post #: 18
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 2:30:31 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:




Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?


(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 19
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 2:35:32 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:

,...


Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?



its different - see QBall's AAR for what I'd call a standard Soviet opening, that relies on large stacks closely hugging the pocket - this looks like the type of opening from early testing before axis players learnt how to break it open

so I'm not immediately convinced its game changing - it might even be breakable as there are some large gaps.

Where I think this becomes different is next turn, the capacity to deny the Germans a point to stabilise the front and possibly to envelop anything that tries to break in?


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Post #: 20
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 2:40:21 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:

,...


Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?



its different - see QBall's AAR for what I'd call a standard Soviet opening, that relies on large stacks closely hugging the pocket - this looks like the type of opening from early testing before axis players learnt how to break it open

so I'm not immediately convinced its game changing - it might even be breakable as there are some large gaps.

Where I think this becomes different is next turn, the capacity to deny the Germans a point to stabilise the front and possibly to envelop anything that tries to break in?



I am asking as a whole since no turn is an entity in and of itself. The whole game is a conglomeration of all turns together. One turn won't break the system, but many will and this motorization is that breakage. I can already visualize this out in my head without even putting it to the map. I really don't want to spend the time proving this for every one to see. Nor do I wish to break my current game with Liats to do so either. You are already seeing it but will come to light soon enough.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 21
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 2:54:17 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm sure I could improve the results on the breakthroughs, and thus reduce MP penalty, but here's a potential opening for Red Army Resurgent:

,...


Is this opening better or worse than one without using motorization? If it is better how much better is this opening compared to the standard opening for this campaign percentage wise?



its different - see QBall's AAR for what I'd call a standard Soviet opening, that relies on large stacks closely hugging the pocket - this looks like the type of opening from early testing before axis players learnt how to break it open

so I'm not immediately convinced its game changing - it might even be breakable as there are some large gaps.

Where I think this becomes different is next turn, the capacity to deny the Germans a point to stabilise the front and possibly to envelop anything that tries to break in?



I am asking as a whole since no turn is an entity in and of itself. The whole game is a conglomeration of all turns together. One turn won't break the system, but many will and this motorization is that breakage. I can already visualize this out in my head without even putting it to the map. I really don't want to spend the time proving this for every one to see. Nor do I wish to break my current game with Liats to do so either. You are already seeing it but will come to light soon enough.


Just like I forcasted Tyronec would capture Baku in his game again BrianG here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4773249&mpage=7&key= (posts relevant started at 172, & 183) where pretty much everyone but me was saying this was impossible

I am now forecasting this motorization will break this game. (Escepcially if you are trying to keep it historical) Either way I will rule it out with house rules because it is way too powerful.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 22
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 4:56:48 PM   
xhoel


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Status: offline 		This seems like an exploit to me and should be changed fast. A middle way would be to give the divisions only half of the MPs max on the turn they motorize (25 MPs) to simulate the difficulty of motorizing a full division on a whim. I think delaying the whole motorization for a full turn as suggested by Nix would be a bit too harsh and would make the whole temp motorization pointless as you are unable to react fast to an emergency when needed.

Having a house rule that rules this exploit out would be a good idea.

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RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 5:55:41 PM   
GloriousRuse

 

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Status: offline 		I think the issue is less on demand motorization than it is that this exceeds motorized MP for soviet units early war. You get 50 MP units rather than 35 in a period where the soviet army isn't supposed to be able to do that. Why not just cap on demand units at 35 until the mid war like every other soviet motorized formation?

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Post #: 24
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 6:47:36 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

I think the issue is less on demand motorization than it is that this exceeds motorized MP for soviet units early war. You get 50 MP units rather than 35 in a period where the soviet army isn't supposed to be able to do that. Why not just cap on demand units at 35 until the mid war like every other soviet motorized formation?


This is bigger than just the MP's for just the Soviets. Much bigger.

(in reply to GloriousRuse)
Post #: 25
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 9:06:54 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		IMO, this is an exploit that needs to be closed. That RAR opening, while you can close the pocket without using Insta-Motorization, you don't really have enough units to firmly close the pocket AND push southwest toward Tatinskaya and down the other rail line. Using 3-4 mobile divisions on Turn 1 is bad enough, but on Turn 2 I think it's going to get REALLY challenging for the German player in that scenario

I think there should be a delay for it to take effect

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Post #: 26
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 9:24:20 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		You can look at either of my AARs for results of motorization since my opponent is a huge fan of motorizing everything in sight. I find it to be out of hand, but I have not said anything since I could have done it as well. For instance, check out this move.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 27
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 9:31:04 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		One solution would be to restrict such motorisation to administrative movement. I don't believe either belligerents in the East motorised for offensive purposes. Even in the West, where the US and Commonwealth infantry had enormous truck pools to draw from, they tended to advance through hostile territory on foot.

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Post #: 28
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 10:11:15 PM   
TheFerret

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 3/9/2021
Status: offline 		The Soviets getting more MP than should be possible for a Soviet motorized unit in 1941 just seems like a rules oversight. Motorized rifle divisions should have the same limited MP as mechanized divisions.

But other than that... I'd be hesitant to call for a change until players get a chance to try counter-strategies. In HLYA's AAR it strikes me that their opponent left Minsk wide open. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a Soviet cavalry division stacked with 10th Army HQ in Starye Dorogi, or one hex to the left of it, could have retaken Minsk too. It's not the game's fault the Germans left a 60+ km completely undefended gap in a critical sector. Plus, we have to remember that both sides can motorize - perhaps the Germans should have motorized some infantry or security divisions to ensure they had all the vulnerable rear areas ZOC-locked. All it would take to prevent this little adventure is 2 well-placed infantry regiments... well, now players should know that the Soviets are capable of moving into totally undefended areas to mess up your logistics.

In the RAR scenario example I'm interested in seeing whether heavy motorization will impact logistics to the point that it slows the offensive later on. I think that's supposed to be the tradeoff, right? You can commandeer trucks from the corps/army/front motor pool to move an infantry division... leaving the quartermasters short on trucks to distribute supplies to everyone else. If there's enough spare trucks laying around that the Soviets can trivially motorize an army's worth of infantry around Stalingrad in November 1942 without feeling any ill effects, the problem might be more with the scenario data than with the motorization mechanic.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 29
RE: On Demand Moto Division exploitation unit - 5/2/2021 10:13:58 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

One solution would be to restrict such motorisation to administrative movement. I don't believe either belligerents in the East motorised for offensive purposes. Even in the West, where the US and Commonwealth infantry had enormous truck pools to draw from, they tended to advance through hostile territory on foot.


That would be the simplest way.

Although personally I think it would be a shame to entirely lose the tactical possibilities that temporary motorisation brings. Ideally I would keep it but adjust the ruleset to increase the downsides and prevent abuse. One obvious change would be to say that a temp motorised cannot enter an enemy controlled hex - only pending ones. So you could have your temporary motorised infantry follow the path of 'conventional' Armoured/Motorised units but not blaze a trail of their own. I'd probably also prevent it being used on the first turn of a scenario. Maybe make temp motorised units much more prone to movement attrition and to heavy losses if attacked?

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 30
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