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Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind_mes... - 12/17/2021 9:57:42 AM

Jango32

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Hello everybody and welcome to a 1941 sudden death rules campaign, played on the Matrix servers. I and mind_messing don't have a lot of house rules; no motorization and no merging in pockets to prevent miraculous escapes of men and equipment.

As of starting this thread, we are on Axis turn 3, and hopefully I'll become as quick as mind_messing to finish my turns to update the AAR regularly. There will be a two-turn delay between AAR updates and the actual game. I don't intend to give up until Sudden Death takes me out, and I believe mind_messing will do the same.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/17/2021 10:39:55 AM >

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 10:07:35 AM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

no merging in pockets to prevent miraculous escapes of men and equipment.

Merging units does not mean that men or equipment escape. It simply forms a stronger unit from the two weaker ones. Damaged elements (men, gun and AFVs) are all retained in the pocket and dont move to the pool.

Other than that, good luck with the AAR!

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 10:09:41 AM

Jango32

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Turn 1 Axis air phase

Unfortunate Axis bomber losses, but acceptable for turn 1. I didn't hit the airbases too far away, like the ones in Kiev or Kirovograd in AGS. I did bomb bases in Estonia though, and a couple around the Land Bridge.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/17/2021 10:52:13 AM >

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 10:11:25 AM

Jango32

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quote:

Merging units does not mean that men or equipment escape. It simply forms a stronger unit from the two weaker ones. Damaged elements (men, gun and AFVs) are all retained in the pocket and dont move to the pool.

They actually do, as we found out in a few tests following Soviet turn 2 in the 4 vs 4 game For the Infallible GROFAZ. Men and equipment (not much, but if it happens with enough units it accumulates) do get sent into the pool.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/17/2021 10:16:36 AM >

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 10:15:22 AM

Jango32

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Turn 1 Army Group North

At the time of doing turn 1 I was thinking of maybe updating the AAR every turn, so these screenshots have invisible units. Unlike in For the Infallible Grofaz, this time I didn't accidentally close the pocket too early in Lithuania. A rifle division near Gulbene shattered, as well as two out of the three airborne brigades near Daugavpils and Rezekne.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 10:19:38 AM

Jango32

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Turn 1 Army Group Center

Another fairly standard opening in the middle, but I decided to rush the Land Bridge at the possible expense of not receiving enough freight in the PzGr 3 spearheads. I've also tightly secured the Minsk-Byalistok pocket, with most units routing inside the pocket after carefully herding them and capturing named hexes ahead of time.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 10:29:38 AM

Jango32

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Turn 1 Army Group South

In the south, however, I attempted to perfect Bread (RedJohn)'s opener by creating a pocket as tight as possible around Rovno. To this end I've moved down von Vietinghoff's corps into PzGr 1. For this I have made a screenshot which has units shown to sort of explain the way I've gone about it. I brought forward two divisions to breakdown into regiments to get rid of the immediate fortifications units with each regiment to pave the way for Grossdeutschland. GD then brushed aside the defenders near Lutsk, paving the way open for III Corps' motorized division. It brushed aside the units in the way to Rovno, at which point I broke it down into regiments to make sure I could cross the river with one of them. I also didn't want to rout the divisions near Rovno out of the future pocket, to that end I think I did a hasty attack to make one division near Rovno retreat downward.

To pave the way in the south for the other half of the Rovno pocket, I used the regiments of a light infantry division that I brought forward to once again remove the fortification units as efficiently as possible. I brushed aside units in the way to where the big stack with 3 PzGr 1 infantry divisions is. I decided to use that stack of three divisions to ensure that the cavalry division would rout and there were no combat delay. After which I had enough MPs for one or two deliberate attacks. Once this was secured, I moved 16th Panzer into position to hasty attack Tarnopol and replaced the corps leader with Hube.

Once Tarnopol was secured, the way to sealing the Rovno pocket and reaching the Romanian border was more or less achieved. I wanted to bring a full division one hex away from the border to prevent any railway evacuations or theater box transfers for units between Lvov and the Hungary-Romania borders.

EDIT: forgot to mention that for the first time ever I've had no reserve activation around Rovno and Lvov. Perhaps I was lucky with the number of damaged elements in this campaign around Lvov, but I think around Rovno turning on ground support for III Motorised may have been decisive in this regard.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/17/2021 10:36:12 AM >

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 10:35:05 AM

Jango32

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Turn 1 End Losses

Overall satisfied with the Luftwaffe-VVS exchange for turn 1, my air force is still intact for the subsequent turn to use as needed.

Comparing this to Hardradi's other turn 1 statistics for losses, it places me on the number 2 spot for the biggest number of Soviet losses. This is very good to say the least.

I must stress however that turn 1 was done with two patches, .06 and .08. Turn 2 and onward will be with .11. I am unsure if it is still possible to go for a Bread opener in the South with the artillery fixes of .11.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 12:26:30 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

quote:

Merging units does not mean that men or equipment escape. It simply forms a stronger unit from the two weaker ones. Damaged elements (men, gun and AFVs) are all retained in the pocket and dont move to the pool.

They actually do, as we found out in a few tests following Soviet turn 2 in the 4 vs 4 game For the Infallible GROFAZ. Men and equipment (not much, but if it happens with enough units it accumulates) do get sent into the pool.

Makes 100% sense Jango32 since I had a post where Joel Billings commented on isolated units will still have men escape when surrendering in an earlier post.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 12:29:02 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

quote:

Merging units does not mean that men or equipment escape. It simply forms a stronger unit from the two weaker ones. Damaged elements (men, gun and AFVs) are all retained in the pocket and dont move to the pool.

They actually do, as we found out in a few tests following Soviet turn 2 in the 4 vs 4 game For the Infallible GROFAZ. Men and equipment (not much, but if it happens with enough units it accumulates) do get sent into the pool.

Makes 100% sense Jango32 since I had a post where Joel Billings commented on isolated units will still have men escape when surrendering in an earlier post.

You will see when isolated units are attacked and surrendered that not all of the elements are captured in every instance.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 2:26:39 PM

xhoel

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The fact that some men and very few guns escape during pocket clearing is a feature of the game. It has nothing to do with units being merged. It is meant to represent breakout attempts by stragglers that make it through to friendly lines which always happens even in the best sealed pockets.

The numbers of such men escaping are very small and dont influence game balance or gameplay. I would suggest you to play with the merge option as it is more realistic and historically accurate, but it is up to you.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 2:43:58 PM

Jango32

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In the Rovno pocket merge from that AAR, 150 T-26 tanks, 200 BT-7 tanks, 900 rifle squads, 300 MGs, 1800 support squads and about 150 guns went into the pool after merging. This was confirmed to us by the Russian team.

They estimated that about 45 000 manpower escaped from the pocket into the pool after merging.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/17/2021 2:46:23 PM >

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 4:20:17 PM

RedJohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

The fact that some men and very few guns escape during pocket clearing is a feature of the game. It has nothing to do with units being merged. It is meant to represent breakout attempts by stragglers that make it through to friendly lines which always happens even in the best sealed pockets.

The numbers of such men escaping are very small and dont influence game balance or gameplay. I would suggest you to play with the merge option as it is more realistic and historically accurate, but it is up to you.

To be clear, merging whilst the units are isolated does not shed any elements to the pool, I believe.

But if you reopen a tight pocket and merge the units inside, all excess elements will be shed to the pool. As Jango noted, the opposing team did so in our 4 v 4 game and it led to the above elements escaping from an otherwise tightly sealed pocket they wouldn't have escaped from otherwise.

Ultimately it's a very gamey way of getting men and equipment out that would have otherwise been lost, and there's no real way to stop it unless houserules are implemented.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 6:13:28 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

The fact that some men and very few guns escape during pocket clearing is a feature of the game. It has nothing to do with units being merged. It is meant to represent breakout attempts by stragglers that make it through to friendly lines which always happens even in the best sealed pockets.

The numbers of such men escaping are very small and dont influence game balance or gameplay. I would suggest you to play with the merge option as it is more realistic and historically accurate, but it is up to you.

The end result, which I believe we are all after, is that men and material is escaping which is the crux that needs fixing. Maybe the merging is bringing on the "excape procedure" earlier than normal. Maybe the excess men are added to the pool when they should not. I sure the heck don't know but seems to be a runtime error in the program.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 6:14:39 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

In the Rovno pocket merge from that AAR, 150 T-26 tanks, 200 BT-7 tanks, 900 rifle squads, 300 MGs, 1800 support squads and about 150 guns went into the pool after merging. This was confirmed to us by the Russian team.

They estimated that about 45 000 manpower escaped from the pocket into the pool after merging.

O.O

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 6:42:29 PM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

The end result, which I believe we are all after, is that men and material is escaping which is the crux that needs fixing. Maybe the merging is bringing on the "excape procedure" earlier than normal. Maybe the excess men are added to the pool when they should not. I sure the heck don't know but seems to be a runtime error in the program.

Yes, men and equipment escaping due to the game not accounting for stuff is a problem that needs to be fixed. I had never seen that happen before so thats why I pointed out that thats not what happens but I stand corrected. I think it would be worth to post a bug report about this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

In the Rovno pocket merge from that AAR, 150 T-26 tanks, 200 BT-7 tanks, 900 rifle squads, 300 MGs, 1800 support squads and about 150 guns went into the pool after merging. This was confirmed to us by the Russian team.

They estimated that about 45 000 manpower escaped from the pocket into the pool after merging.

That is a lot of men and equipment indeed so I can understand why the house rule is in place. Thanks for pointing it out! Good luck with the AAR!

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/17/2021 10:07:40 PM

Hardradi

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Looking good. I would be a little worried about those lonesome Panzer regiments on the southeastern side of the Rovno pocket.

That's a nice amount of air losses inflicted.

The bar rises again. Amazingly low Axis casualties. EDIT: Updated

< Message edited by Hardradi -- 12/20/2021 11:49:58 PM >

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/18/2021 8:12:32 AM

Jango32

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Hardradi brought to my attention that I had uploaded the wrong ground casualties image. That one was taken before deciding to attack 7th Mechanized division, which had two stacks of units routed on top of itself.

Here are the fixed ground losses.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/27/2021 12:13:28 PM

Jango32

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Turn 2 Army Group North

Objective recon
Recon indicates that there is no resistance along the Rezekne-Ostrov double rail line into Pskov. What is curious is that nothing is reported in the Velikie Luki area either. It seems that mind_messing abandoned the entire region. Soviet defenses of Pskov are situated in Latvia, in key swamp hexes annoyingly enough.

Pocket recon
I run recon inside the pockets to have better combat odds when clearing them. Looks like mind_messing moved his units to block fast crossing of the Daugava by the infantry, but it shouldn't be too much of a hurdle.

Pskov advance
I've used 36th Motorized to clear the way for the Panzer divisions. From memory the defenders in Gulbene didn't budge and needed another attack to rout away. Recon information along the Pskov double rail was confirmed as there was no resistance. 3rd Motorized mopped up defenses along the way for 8th Panzer to secure the city.

Pskov's light defenses easily fell to the attack carried by 8th Panzer.

Army Group North end of turn
Pockets in Lithuania have been reduced to a single division shown there that was too far away from the infantry to be taken out. I used the security units to look around in case recon had missed some units and it turned out to be a fruitful search. Based on turn 1's routed unit counters I had a feeling that recon was a few units short of expectations.

Totenkopf advanced into Parnu facing no opposition, while 1st Panzer flipped some hexes for next turn's advance beyond Pskov towards Leningrad to use administrative movement. Also secured the perimeter around the newly created pocket to eliminate it next turn.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/27/2021 12:42:32 PM

Jango32

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Turn 2 Army Group Center

Objective recon
Looks like a lot of routed units were moved into the Mogilev and Orsha areas. There is also a pair of counters near Smolensk, which can't be good news for us because it indicates that it may be either defense in depth or he's fallen back to a Smolensk line. Still, we need to secure the Land Bridge and take Vitebsk.

Pocket recon
No breakout attempts were made from what I can tell. I'll use 4th and 9th armies (and the security units) to clear the pocket while the Panzer group infantry divisions will head to the Land Bridge. Can't afford to keep those in the back.

3rd Panzer recon in force
Looks like there is no Soviet defense on the way down to the Pripet marshes. von Schweppenburg's corps should be able to cross the river this turn and envelop the routed units.

von Schweppenburg crosses
Moved up the Panzer divisions over the river, while the motorized division heads to Mogilev to flip hexes for infantry administrative movement on the next turns.

Capture of Vitebsk
Schmidt manages to inflict heavy losses on the Soviet defenders of Vitebsk while suffering little losses of his own. Now to head to Smolensk.

Defensive line identified
It seems that the units recon saw weren't defense in depth, but the Smolensk defensive line. Seems that they're positioned along the river near the city and woods. It's probably too tough of a nut to crack right now, so we will probe the defenses along the Sosh river past the Dnepr.

Pocket formed
Lemelsen's Panzer division moves to Orsha and the hex flips confirm that there isn't anything to speak of in terms of Land Bridge defenses. Assuming that all those units with 0?0 on the counter are routed forces, it's in my best interests to have them surrender on the next turn. This means that Hoth's group will help out Guderian's with the encirclement.

Army Group Center end of turn
I move up what I can of the infantry divisions and position forces to ensure the pockets remain isolated. What's missing from the screenshot is breaking down the Panzer division near Orsha into regiments and crossing one of them to the other side of the river to establish a zone of control in case the Rifle Division tries to link up Mogilev, and if something from Smolensk snakes its way to link up the pocket with the Rifle Division.

What's also not pictured is using a motorized infantry division's regiment to probe Velikie Luki, which I've found to be empty and took it with the said regiment. Moved some units into the rough hexes near Vitebsk to establish a future pocket.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/27/2021 1:57:37 PM >

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 1:18:19 PM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Hello everybody and welcome to a 1941 sudden death rules campaign, played on the Matrix servers. I and mind_messing don't have a lot of house rules; no motorization and no merging in pockets to prevent miraculous escapes of men and equipment.

...

So motorization is allowed or not?

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 vs mind_messing - 12/27/2021 1:26:46 PM

Jango32

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Turn 2 Army Group South

Objective recon east
Looks like the road to Kiev is pretty barren, with surviving Southwestern Front units and the Southern Front defending along Mogilev-Podolsky. Unfortunately, in this sector recon was not quite correct, as we shall see soon...

Objective recon south
Looks like mind_messing is determined to defend ahead of the Dnestr at least for this turn. No quick snatch of Odessa.

Pocket recon
Thankfully, all three pockets hold, with Galicia in prime position to be isolated this turn. The most shocking turn of events has to be the fact that mind_messing did not cut off the leading spearhead near the Romanian border. If he's reading the AAR, I hope he'll leave a post as to why he did not make such an obvious move(in my opinion). 6th Army and the infantry of PzGr 1 will eliminate the Rovno pocket, while 17th Army will move into more advantageous positions to eliminate the Galicia pocket and also to further weaken Soviet defenses by routing units where judged to be appropriate.

Mogilev-Podolsky encirclement move 1
I start the chain of events leading to a new pocket by clearing the way for 11th Panzer to advance using a German infantry division and two Romanian units.

Mogilev-Podolsky encirclement move 2
I probe the way forward with the Romanian armoured division and it seems to bear fruit. I did notice, however, when I moved one hex up that Rezina did not flip, so I undid the move by pressing 'u'. It's a really useful mechanic to utilize when probing for pockets.

Mogilev-Podolsky encirclement move 3
Kempf's units near Tarnopol and Proskurov start probing and encounter a mechanized and a tank division on a hex. The motorized division manages to brush them aside, thankfully not too far away from where I wanted to create the pocket. I take the Mogilev-Podolsky hex afterwards with a Romanian cavalry brigade, and 11th Panzer follows in its wake.

Mogilev-Podolsky encirclement move 4
11th Panzer flips hexes as it now begins working on the Yampol pocket. The way seems to be fairly clear of Soviet forces, doubtlessly the result of cutting off Southwestern Front's escape route along the Romanian border with 11th Panzer on turn 1.

Mogilev-Podolsky encirclement move 5
I break down the Romanian division into regiments to probe further, and it looks like we've hit the jackpot - no defenses that prevent the Yampol encirclement from happening.

Vinnitsa pocket probe
Further probes with Kempf's regiment and Hube's corps reveals that Vinnitsa is vulnerable to being pocketed. Correspondingly, all that is left to do is seal it with units.

Zhitomir pocket
This is where recon failed in the south. I started moving III Motorized corps' units towards Zhitomir, brushed aside some fortified units with regiments, and noticed ZOC when trying to advance. Further inquiries were made and a significant concentration of Red Army forces was found near Zhitomir, though the city itself was empty. von Vietinghoff's corps moved to assist von Meckensen with sealing the pocket, and some of Hube's unfrozen units will also be needed to seal the pocket (Wiking and LSSAH).

Army Group South end of turn
Because of no serious pocket breakout attempts and not cutting off the spearhead near the Romanian border, I decided to be bold and go wild in the south with pocket forming. I did not anticipate that I was going to create 5 separate pockets when I got in-game to see what turn 2 looked like however. Unfortunately because the displayed CV was not encouraging, I had to use a regiment and a motorized division in a deliberate attack near Zhitomir to create the pocket. Neither LSSAH nor Wiking had enough MPs to grab the essential hex to properly seal the Zhitomir pocket, and at the time I didn't know that isolated non-motorized units always received 8 MPs no matter what.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/27/2021 2:03:40 PM >

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 1:27:17 PM

Jango32

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No, motorization is not allowed.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 1:33:56 PM

Jango32

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Turn 2 Casualties

Air Casualties
A good trade this turn in the Luftwaffe's favour. Some unfortunate recon losses, but quite a few of those were Romanians, so the Axis losses aren't that bad.

Ground Casualties
Reducing or outright eliminating the pockets has more than doubled the Soviet losses and at the same time maintaining Axis losses respectably low. The question is for how long will I enjoy this loss rate.

All in all though, I am satisfied with the way Axis turn 2 ended, albeit imperfectly. I feel that the tempo on this turn was kept and pressure all over the front was applied.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 1:40:06 PM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

No, motorization is not allowed.

Then probably this: "What's also not pictured is using motorized infantry to probe Velikie Luki, which I've found to be empty and took it with a regiment." has to be changed for motorized division?

Other than that - great pockets from the start.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 1:56:49 PM

Jango32

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Yeah, in my mind it was the same thing (realistically) but you are correct that in-game they mean different things. I don't remember which division's regiments it was exactly.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 6:11:28 PM

Beethoven1

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You essentially destroyed the entire Southwestern front, including most or all of the high morale divisions, within the first two turns or so. There is no plausible way anyone can really argue that this is not the best possible opening Germany can do. I don't think there is anything Soviets can really do to counteract it. It's an impressive achievement to be sure. I am not sure if it is balanced though, because it basically totally destroys the Soviet south defense from the get-go. Good luck to any Soviet player trying to hold Kiev and Odessa for anything remotely like the historical time against this opening.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 7:34:11 PM

AlbertN

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I am with Beethoven here - I do not think Axis should be able to achieve the 'reach the Romanian border' type of business. But then again I am also of the opinion Russians cannot just run run and run further.

Good job there nonetheless! I think I'd need helluva of practice to achieve such type of result.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 7:57:00 PM

821Bobo

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That's quite a disaster for Soviets but can see lot of mistakes they did. Not defending Pskov-Ostrov line, Land Bridge and Dnepr are huge blunders.
Also from the screens it appears that mm was overcome by high CV, false sense of security, putting units in good defense terrain and totally ignoring the possibility of being outflanked.

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RE: Gott mit uns - 1941 campaign Jango32 (Axis) vs mind... - 12/27/2021 8:16:15 PM

Jango32

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Not sure how worthwhile it is to defend the Land Bridge to be honest. Defending the forests and swamps near Smolensk (with ZOC positioning in depth) prevents a large encirclement from happening, and early on you don't have the infantry to smash the Soviet wall.

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