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Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots

 
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Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/26/2021 1:53:18 PM   
Nova1984

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/26/2021
Status: offline 		When I capture Minsk in T1 there is a lot of supplies and fuel (about 11k supplies/2k fuel)
However my units get only a small part of their supplies because they draw supplies from a pre-war depot, despite sitting on top of the depot in Minsk.

It makes no difference if the HQ is there, too or if I build a depot there or not in T1.

Can I get my troops to draw the supplies from Minsk?
Post #: 1
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/26/2021 1:59:29 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		In general what is in a seized depot is destroyed - and in minimal part captured. (Negligible amounts I feel).

That's specified in the manual about capturing depots.

It is a mix of the 'retreating forces' blowing up their own stuff and a lot of stuff not being useable (ammunitions for instance).

I do agree that captured supplies should be more though, between fuel, edibles and general consumable goods.

Your troops will draw supply from Minsk once you have your own depot there, connected by railroad, alas. Not before (save air supply there).

(in reply to Nova1984)
Post #: 2
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/26/2021 4:50:37 PM   
Nova1984

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/26/2021
Status: offline 		The 11k/2k figure is from the turn after capturing the depot, so there is enough in the depot.
I tried flying in more supplies but the freight just vanished, it wasn't added to the depot nor directly to the units.

The manual seems to suggest, that the local (unconnected) depot is only used if and only if the units that draw from it are isolated.
But it seems weird to hope the AI will encircle my troops so they get better supplied

Let's say I manage to capture Smolensk on T2, there is no way i'm getting enough supplies there from the pre-war depots.
But getting encircled there would give me more than enough supplies to continue my drive on moscow

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 3
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/27/2021 9:09:38 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		few bits that I think you may be muddling up:

a) air dropped supply is immediately redeployed, target depends on

a1) HQ in the target hex, to the HQ
a2) Combat unit in the target hex, to the Combat Unit(s)
a3) empty airbase, to the airbase (if it needs supply)
a4) otherwise, temp depot created and redistributed at the end of the turn

b) a captured city has freight stocks you can use but not (automatically) a depot, so you get some but not a lot. Assume its there but a combination of sabotage and the chaos of occupation limits access at a militarily important level

c) you won't be 'better supplied' if encircled and its not a springboard to Moscow

_____________________________


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Post #: 4
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/27/2021 11:01:34 AM   
Nova1984

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/26/2021
Status: offline 		a) I'm aware air drops should be redeployed immediately but neither the depot nor the units got something.
a1) That might be what happend => the HQ might have gotten all the supplies, I will have to check that.
It doesn't seem to make much sense to me though. The HQ cannot redistribute the supplies if I'm not mistaken and a well supplied HQ isn't of much use compared to a well supplied unit.

b) So when can I use the supplies? I waited 3 turns but the supplies are still not beeing used, instead a 29 hex supply line to a pre-war depot is traced.
Will the supplies be 'converted' to 'good supplies' after the rail is connected?
Or will the captured supplies be sent to Berlin? This would be even worse as it would clog up the rail network.

c) This would be contrary to what is written in the manual:
quote:

25.7.6. Isolated Depots
Units in isolated areas (23.14.1) can also use freight in a
depot. Depots in isolated hexes will lose 5 percent of their
freight each turn in the logistics phase to reflect that some
of the freight is not the material that is needed by the units
that are drawing from it.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 5
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/27/2021 11:38:08 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		again, some fundamental issues

1) of course the HQ distributes freight to its attached combat units - happens in the logistics phase, so by the time the next turn comes around you've 'used' the supplies

2) no the captured supplies don't get sent to Berlin. Most are used/lost immediately, if by some fluke you get the railyard/rail all connected (with a depot) the next turn then it still can't send freight the NSS at Berlin. Remember depots can't send freight to another depot with the same priority and by design the various NSS are all at priority 0

3) its exactly what is in the manual, units that are that isolated of course can claim freight out of depots in the same pocket. But you can't have a depot without a connected railyard (well you can but it doesn't work) and you can't have a rail way connection on the turn you capture a city (by definition). This is different to the routines around a port but the assumption is the docks area makes it easier to impose a degree of control.

_____________________________


(in reply to Nova1984)
Post #: 6
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/27/2021 4:20:26 PM   
Nova1984

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/26/2021
Status: offline 		I just tried a few more things:
1. Fly in 400 tons of supplies => 10 tons got added to the HQ, nothing to the units, the air field or the depot. So 390 tons seem to have 'vanished'
1a. See if there was something distributed after I finised the turn => I got 250 tons of supplies from minsk which seem all to have been converted into replacements
1b. Set TOE to 50 to avoid replacements => still got some replacements but in total only about half as much supplies from Minsk
1c. As in 1. but now I moved the HQ back to the pre-war border before ending the turn => still got the large amount of replacements

2. Remove all units and HQs from Minsk, the fly in the supplies => all gone to waste, nothing added to the depot or air field in Minsk
2a. return the units to Minsk before ending the turn => This time I got all my supplies from Minsk, again mostly in form of replacements, nothing was taken from the pre-war border depots

There seems to be a 'hidden' depot with the 'good supplies' while the 'bad supplies' stay in Minsk and arn't used (?)

Another thing a saw was the amount of fuel stored in Minsk halves every turn while the amount of supplies do not change at all, couldn't find a rule for that yet (?)

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 7
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/27/2021 4:58:54 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		none of that actually makes much sense - yes, you are reporting what you are seeing but its not what is happening.

could you provide a save?

_____________________________


(in reply to Nova1984)
Post #: 8
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/28/2021 6:34:53 AM   
Nova1984

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/26/2021
Status: offline 		I don't have a save for you but it's easy and quick to reproduce:
1. start a new campaign
2. delete all air directives (to speed up the processing)
3. execute air phase
4. punch a hole in the enemy line newa Sulvaki
5. move a mobile or tank division to Minsk
6. do whatever scenario you want to test, including moving a HQ to Minsk


I did a few more experiments:
a) Air transport supplies to Minsk, then move all units in Minsk back to the pre-war border and send another unit to Minsk and end turn
=> the new Unit in Minsk will receive the supplies
=> so the supplies are not attached to the HQ or the units but stay in Minsk

b) Air transport supplies and then move all units back to the pre-war border, send NO new Unit and end the turn
=> the displayed supplies in Minsk depot did not increase
=> then I returned the units to Minsk and end the turn
=> the unit draws the supplies from Minsk, but it's not from the depot in Minsk (the values didn't change) but from the air dropped supplies!

c) Air transport supplies to two hexes on my side of the border with an airbase; one has a depot the other does not
=> After the units are topped up all additional supplies vanish, even on the hex with the depot (they are not added to the depot)
=> if there is no unit in the hex all supplies vanish

So there is some potential evidence that a 'hidden' depot is created by air supply that cannot be seen anywhere.
Additionally air transport will never be added to the visible depot, even if it is on your side of the border and connected to the rail.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 9
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/28/2021 7:20:08 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nova1984

I don't have a save for you but it's easy and quick to reproduce:
1. start a new campaign...


according to my notes I've started 35 campaigns since first testing WiTE2 and taken Minsk on T1 in every one of those with the Axis. I've also not seen what you are reporting. Thats not a comment on the validity of your report but that if I do it again I'll get the result I usually do.

So if you can provide a save point and indicate what your next action would be, then we can have a look at what is happening when you run the process. There maybe a specific sequence you are following that is particularly relevant.

Unless you've stumbled on an odd bug (possible, which is also why it helps to have it set up your way) there are no 'hidden' depots or 'bad supplies' in the game (unless you have found a bug)

_____________________________


(in reply to Nova1984)
Post #: 10
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/28/2021 11:38:47 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline 		Post #9 is clear to me what is happening and explained well. Anyone can do the same without a save to see what is happening. I had noticed the same quirks when I was playing a few months ago.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 11
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/29/2021 3:03:54 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Post #9 is clear to me what is happening and explained well. Anyone can do the same without a save to see what is happening. I had noticed the same quirks when I was playing a few months ago.


thats nice but I have no desire to play out a realistic T1 just to see if the problem/issues occur in a likely end situation when you might run the air transport.

if a save was provided then it would be interesting to test what is happening in the situation described, but I'm not taking a clean start just to test out something that I haven't seen happen in a real game.

I've tried his steps in my current game and I don't see what is being reported, but clearly I am not testing the specific set up described.

_____________________________


(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 12
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/29/2021 5:21:36 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Post #9 is clear to me what is happening and explained well. Anyone can do the same without a save to see what is happening. I had noticed the same quirks when I was playing a few months ago.


thats nice but I have no desire to play out a realistic T1 just to see if the problem/issues occur in a likely end situation when you might run the air transport.

if a save was provided then it would be interesting to test what is happening in the situation described, but I'm not taking a clean start just to test out something that I haven't seen happen in a real game.

I've tried his steps in my current game and I don't see what is being reported, but clearly I am not testing the specific set up described.


His (Nova1984) is showing simple steps to do to see what he has done with the specific results. In no way are you playing out a realistic T1 as you stated in your response.

You haven't seen it but I sure have, plus Nova1984 has. Has anyone else tried this and come up with same or differing results?

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 13
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/29/2021 6:00:28 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		I'm struggling here. So I create an artificial situation that has no feasible role in the game and I get an odd result that tells me nothing about the dynamics in a conventional game about city capture (dispersion of any captured freight) or air supply?

I believe his reports, and I can readily believe that they are repeatable.

I guess my view is to what end?

In WiTW in the 1944 breakout phase (or when playing the Torch scenarios) I would often do air supply when moving units to keep a spearhead going or to give resources in case of a counterattack. In none of those did I encounter his results. I could see the freight being picked up in the units or HQ. In WiTE2 I sometimes drop on an airbase to either support newly deployed planes (& again I can see the result)

_____________________________


(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 14
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/30/2021 1:50:44 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'm struggling here. So I create an artificial situation that has no feasible role in the game and I get an odd result that tells me nothing about the dynamics in a conventional game about city capture (dispersion of any captured freight) or air supply?

I believe his reports, and I can readily believe that they are repeatable.

I guess my view is to what end?

In WiTW in the 1944 breakout phase (or when playing the Torch scenarios) I would often do air supply when moving units to keep a spearhead going or to give resources in case of a counterattack. In none of those did I encounter his results. I could see the freight being picked up in the units or HQ. In WiTE2 I sometimes drop on an airbase to either support newly deployed planes (& again I can see the result)


If you can't garner to what end what he has written then I by no means will be able to enlighten you no matter how hard I try. The evidence is in his writings, what people do with it is another thing.


(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 15
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/30/2021 3:59:15 AM   
jubjub

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 5/2/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nova1984

I don't have a save for you but it's easy and quick to reproduce:
1. start a new campaign
2. delete all air directives (to speed up the processing)
3. execute air phase
4. punch a hole in the enemy line newa Sulvaki
5. move a mobile or tank division to Minsk
6. do whatever scenario you want to test, including moving a HQ to Minsk


I did a few more experiments:
a) Air transport supplies to Minsk, then move all units in Minsk back to the pre-war border and send another unit to Minsk and end turn
=> the new Unit in Minsk will receive the supplies
=> so the supplies are not attached to the HQ or the units but stay in Minsk

b) Air transport supplies and then move all units back to the pre-war border, send NO new Unit and end the turn
=> the displayed supplies in Minsk depot did not increase
=> then I returned the units to Minsk and end the turn
=> the unit draws the supplies from Minsk, but it's not from the depot in Minsk (the values didn't change) but from the air dropped supplies!

c) Air transport supplies to two hexes on my side of the border with an airbase; one has a depot the other does not
=> After the units are topped up all additional supplies vanish, even on the hex with the depot (they are not added to the depot)
=> if there is no unit in the hex all supplies vanish

So there is some potential evidence that a 'hidden' depot is created by air supply that cannot be seen anywhere.
Additionally air transport will never be added to the visible depot, even if it is on your side of the border and connected to the rail.


As far as the hidden depot goes, this is WAD. If you press 'n' and hover over the airbase you dropped to, you should see 'temporary depot' where the freight will show up.

(in reply to Nova1984)
Post #: 16
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 12/30/2021 11:08:58 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nova1984

I don't have a save for you but it's easy and quick to reproduce:
1. start a new campaign
2. delete all air directives (to speed up the processing)
3. execute air phase
4. punch a hole in the enemy line newa Sulvaki
5. move a mobile or tank division to Minsk
6. do whatever scenario you want to test, including moving a HQ to Minsk


I did a few more experiments:
a) Air transport supplies to Minsk, then move all units in Minsk back to the pre-war border and send another unit to Minsk and end turn
=> the new Unit in Minsk will receive the supplies
=> so the supplies are not attached to the HQ or the units but stay in Minsk

b) Air transport supplies and then move all units back to the pre-war border, send NO new Unit and end the turn
=> the displayed supplies in Minsk depot did not increase
=> then I returned the units to Minsk and end the turn
=> the unit draws the supplies from Minsk, but it's not from the depot in Minsk (the values didn't change) but from the air dropped supplies!

c) Air transport supplies to two hexes on my side of the border with an airbase; one has a depot the other does not
=> After the units are topped up all additional supplies vanish, even on the hex with the depot (they are not added to the depot)
=> if there is no unit in the hex all supplies vanish

So there is some potential evidence that a 'hidden' depot is created by air supply that cannot be seen anywhere.
Additionally air transport will never be added to the visible depot, even if it is on your side of the border and connected to the rail.


ok. I've just sat down and tested these claims in my current game. If a unit is present or not the air supply routine generates a temp depot in the hex.





So there is no 'hidden' depot, its clearly there as a temporary depot.

This is a MP game so I can't run it forward but that will be dispersed in the next logistics phase - probably back to the airfield it came from in this situation

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
...

If you can't garner to what end what he has written then I by no means will be able to enlighten you no matter how hard I try. The evidence is in his writings, what people do with it is another thing.



So as far as I can see air supply works as described, its generating a temp depot, that is then assigned to nearby units. It may fail to work this way in a very contrived situation (though I'm not convinced)

thread edited as I realised the original screen shots might have been of some value to my opponent

< Message edited by loki100 -- 12/30/2021 11:15:46 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Nova1984)
Post #: 17
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 1/11/2022 4:40:32 PM   
Nova1984

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/26/2021
Status: offline 		The latest patch has an interesting patch note on this topic:
quote:

· Change to Logistics – It is possible for supplies and fuel in cities to automatically be converted to freight in the depot in the hex, with the supplies and freight returning to the pool (I don’t think this was ever documented but has always been the case). This has now been changed so it no longer happens in isolated cities.


So with the new version the supplies and fuel in the cities can be converted to freight in the depot in that hex.
Additionally the supplies/fuel will no longer be shipped to the pool for isolated cities.
So this will probably solve my issues with the supply system :-)
This should have quite an positive effect as we can now use captured freight and reduce the load on the rail net for freight shipped back to the depot (I suspect they use the rail net for shipment?)

I will have a test in my next save.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 18
RE: Why do my units not use supplies from captured depots - 1/31/2022 6:14:42 PM   
mikael333

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 4/10/2021
Status: offline 		The temp depot is logical. But the additional rules are confusing. We learned that in this game freight moves from depots to units and not from HQs to units. Now I just learn that it does. Should I regard every HQ as a mini depot?
I think with air supply you would like to send supply, amunition and fuel, not men. So freight as an abstraction becomes strange.
About capturing supply and fuel in cities: Why are they not destroyed same as for depots? Wouldn'd they be much more useful to the front line troops? Why do they go to the pool and not the nearest depot?

< Message edited by mikael333 -- 1/31/2022 6:18:28 PM >

(in reply to Nova1984)
Post #: 19
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