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Battle Report to Field Marshal Rommel

 
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Battle Report to Field Marshal Rommel - 6/12/2000 7:59:00 AM   
bigjim

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 6/3/2000
Status: offline 		Herr Field Marshall The Africa Corps is doing well now that you have sent us the Tiger and Panther's, however the the optic sights are in need of adjustments, our 88's seem to be bouncing off the Americana halftracks on NUMEROUS occassions. We have captured some of these vehicles and have noticed only 12mm armour plate with little or no slope on the sides. Our 88's should be shreading these vehicles on first contact so I fear that our men are seeing hits that didnot occurr???. We will continue to track this situation as usual our troops are in high spirits as we go from victory to victory. Oberst Heniz Gottenhiem Heil Hitler

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- 6/12/2000 8:45:00 AM   
victorhauser

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline 		I recall reading somewhere in these forums that if a round has sufficient penetration, then it might pass all the way through the target without causing significant damage. this is what you may be witnessing. P.S. I'm guessing you are just being enthusiastic and getting into your role as a kampfgruppe commander, but please refrain from the "Heil Hitler" stuff. I, for one, find it extremely offensive. P.P.S. This is another example of why I'm opposed to the elite designation for SS troops.

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Post #: 2
- 6/12/2000 9:58:00 AM   
Drake666

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 4/22/2000
Status: offline 		The Tiger could be useing HE shells on the Halftruck. They have a very low penatration vs armour. Next time you shot at a halftruck and it dont destroy it, look at what kind of ammo was used.

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Post #: 3
- 6/12/2000 10:28:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		Remember that horizontal aspect is just as good as slope in the vertical... Are they bouncing of (ie the message says "ricochet" of simply penetrating and not hitting anything vital? There is a lower limit of 5% on "ricochets" meaning there is at least a 5% chance that any hit will be ineffective, whether by actually bouncing or by sinply hitting the "edges" of the target. There is also a 95% maximum, menaing even if you do get an 89% angle, there is at least a 5% chance the round will still "bite". Actually HTs are treated the same as tanks, so they are more vulnerable than they should be. Putting an 88mm hole anywhere in the rear 2/3 is going to have little effect. Unless you are the unlucky trooper on the other side of the 12mm... [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 06-11-2000).]

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Post #: 4
- 6/13/2000 12:45:00 AM   
bigjim

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 6/3/2000
Status: offline 		P.S. I'm guessing you are just being enthusiastic and getting into your role as a kampfgruppe commander, but please refrain from the "Heil Hitler" stuff. I, for one, find it extremely offensive. P.P.S. This is another example of why I'm opposed to the elite designation for SS troops.[/B][/QUOTE] Sorry didnot mean to offend but the truth is that HE did exist and this game simulates a time when HE was alive, however I respect your opinion and wonder what your age is??? (since when I was born HE was still alive) AAs to the HalfTrack situation I guess I failed to think about the "pass through" that must be happening as I am not getting the richochet message. BigJim

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Post #: 5
- 6/13/2000 12:49:00 AM   
Dean Robb

 

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Va Beach, VA USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by bigjim: AAs to the HalfTrack situation I guess I failed to think about the "pass through" that must be happening as I am not getting the richochet message.
Your clue here is the report "Pen 150, Arm 20" (or whatever values). When the pentration exceeds the armor value, but no other damage is reported, you may assume a thru-n-thru.

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Post #: 6
- 6/13/2000 3:21:00 AM   
victorhauser

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline 		Here We Go Again...
quote:

Originally posted by bigjim: Sorry didnot mean to offend but the truth is that HE did exist and this game simulates a time when HE was alive, however I respect your opinion and wonder what your age is??? (since when I was born HE was still alive) BigJim
I was born in the early 1950s, but I don't think my age has anything to do with realizing that the Nazis are possibly the worst human plague ever inflicted upon our species. The only "HE" I recognize is God, certainly not Adolph Hitler. I am absolutely in favor of enthusiasm and enjoyment when it comes to gaming. And it is wise advice that somebody here in these forums gave when they suggested separating the horrible reality of war from the game itself and just play the game. But there is still a line of civility, decorum, and grace that we should not cross, even in fun. There is nothing funny about the Nazis. And, in my opinion, even "roleplaying" is dangerous when it involves Nazis (the movie "Apt Pupil" comes to mind). I would love to focus solely on the wonderful game SPWAW. Call me a reactionary, call me what you will, but I still react strongly when I see our playing go out of bounds. Then I call out "foul". In the Spirit of Harmonius Gaming, Victor

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Post #: 7
- 6/13/2000 9:47:00 AM   
bigjim

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 6/3/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by victorhauser: Here We Go Again... I was born in the early 1950s, but I don't think my age has anything to do with realizing that the Nazis are possibly the worst human plague ever inflicted upon our species. The only "HE" I recognize is God, certainly not Adolph Hitler. I am absolutely in favor of enthusiasm and enjoyment when it comes to gaming. And it is wise advice that somebody here in these forums gave when they suggested separating the horrible reality of war from the game itself and just play the game. But there is still a line of civility, decorum, and grace that we should not cross, even in fun. There is nothing funny about the Nazis. And, in my opinion, even "roleplaying" is dangerous when it involves Nazis (the movie "Apt Pupil" comes to mind). I would love to focus solely on the wonderful game SPWAW. Call me a reactionary, call me what you will, but I still react strongly when I see our playing go out of bounds. Then I call out "foul". In the Spirit of Harmonius Gaming, Victor
Hmmm ok well for starters I think you are way over reacting and secondly ALOT of things have happened SINCE Hitlers time that have been very bad. I do not support what the Nazi's did nor do I subscribe to any kind of inhumanity to man, BUT I think your wrapper is abit tight you need to loosen up abit. History is there for all to see if they wish to read it and your attempts to rile me have worked I don't like your tone or your inferance about what I think or don't think. This is STILL a free country and I did MY bit to keep it that way (Viet Nam Vet) as you aptly noted in your first post it was just abit of roll play, but for your information officers in the German army who failed to use that salutation often didn't live long during that time. BigJim

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Post #: 8
- 6/13/2000 9:53:00 AM   
Desert Fox

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ohio, that is all I can say.
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, I have seen those 'invincible' halftracks too. However, I don't see the halftracks taking 88s with no effect, I see my armored cars taking 75mm Sherman tank shells with no effect. I have turned off the messages, so I don't know exactly what is going on, but from the sounds, a good portion of these shells are ricocheting. Don't get me wrong, the armored cars rarely take more than one ricochet, but I still find it odd that it happens. Perhaps just as odd is the fact that I can use the same armored cars to pound away at halftracks from 1 hex away and, even more frequently than 75mm shells bounciung off armored cars, the 20mm weapons simply do not cause the crew to bail or the halftrack to blow up. I seem to lose armored cars quicker to the .50 cals on the halftracks than one of my 20mm guns actually destroys the halftrack. Seems odd to me, anyways. And as for that Hitler thing, I really think you are a little oppressed, victorhauser. Saying, "Heil Hitler" as a kampfgruppe commander is no different than saying, "Long live the King," as a British commander, or "Hail to the Chief" as an American commander. Yeah, Hitler was an evil dude, but few soldiers in the field knew about it, and besides that, he was the leader of the country they were fighting for. Its all about respect and patriotism not slaughtering Jews and commiting attrocities. It absolutely must be taken in context.

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Post #: 9
- 6/13/2000 9:53:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		The past is the past. Hitler was a bad guy, yes... but I don't think it's bad to talk about him or for bigjim to 'play-act' a little. It was not in bad taste, and it's not glorifying the evil Hitler represents. I think it unfair to create an environment where people are uncomfortable to say things that pertain to something 50 years ago for fear of an old grudge... I believe in no supression, unless there is a clear intent to harm others or promote beliefs that harm others. It's like trying to tell a people that they can't speak a certain language because it was one spoken by our enemies. (Anyways, Hitler was just the over-eager whimp that Stalin beat so bad he killed himself. The real devil of WWII is Uncle Joe because he won. Hitler was crazy, evil, and more, but he was also a loser.) Tomo

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Post #: 10
- 6/13/2000 11:36:00 AM   
victorhauser

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline 		OK Enough is Enough... My reactions are strenuous for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is because my father was a German Jew. Be that as it may, I would probably back off and lighten up more (as Jim suggests), but for the preponderence of "Germanophilia" in these posts... If the number of signatures were roughly equal measures of "Semper Fi", "Banzai", "Urrah", etc. to go along with the "PanzerMayers", then I could more easily go along with that. But there is a seeming glorification of German military prowess over all others (and especially a reverence approaching religious adoration for the SS) that disturbs me. However, this is an apology in open-letter format to everybody whose time I've taken reading my responses that have seemingly little to do with SPWAW. I will attempt to stay more on topic. Sincerely, Victor Hauser

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Post #: 11
- 6/13/2000 12:45:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		I think it is indeed time to put this to rest, gentlemen. No harm was meant by Big Jim. It was done in fun as a battle report from the field. At the same time, having had family involved in that terrible period of time cannot help but have an effect for Victor that all of us should understand, if we could understand. So all have spoken their mind. It is time to move on. I'm certain all of the folks on this forum understand the feelings on both sides. I think I do. As to the matter of hits by an 88, I think Paul Vebber has dealt with that quite adequately. Wild Bill =========== ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 12
- 6/13/2000 8:24:00 PM   
bigjim

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 6/3/2000
Status: offline 		Well said Bill I will also apologize to Victor as I ment no harm, I will in respect to his feeling refrain from further role play of that manner as I have no wish to upset the community or start any type of flame war. On with the game BigJim

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Post #: 13
- 6/14/2000 1:55:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		I didn't mean to sound like I was flaming anyone, I apologize as well. I do agree with you though, Vic. A lot of people are really into German WWII military prowess. What can you do though, a lot of it is not being fully informed, and a lot of it was that the wehrmacht had some really imressive moments... (I think some of it is Panzer General's fault though) Being the bad guy isn't all that attractive, but being the bad guy and victorious sometimes is... cant blame people for being people.

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Post #: 14
- 6/14/2000 2:13:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline 		Regardless of any political convictions we should recognize that the German military in WWII wrote the book for modern combined arms tactics. Most (all?) military schools still seriously study German, Soviet and Japanese actions in WWII without any implication that these bad guys' political ideologies and war crimes are tolerated. (Not to slight my maternal lineage but I suppose no one studies the Italians except as a case study of what not to do.) I'm glad to see Matrix and the wargaming community here focus (& even praise if praise is due) on the tactics, weapons, etc. without any implications beyond that. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 15
- 6/14/2000 9:42:00 AM   
krull

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		Amen WB and Semper Fi!! Roleplay can be fun but as a retired Marine my wife says if i slip back into my old ways my wargaming days are numbered > . SO on with the game and a patch hehehehe.

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Post #: 16
- 6/15/2000 8:08:00 PM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		I am glad that the tone of this exchange has evolved as it has, with the parties adopting a conciliatory stance. I particularly support Wild Bill's contribution. I enjoy this forum because it supports my most favourite pastime. I have my own opinions about the political and historical aspects of the Second Warld War, but I reserve that for a different environment. You will not find me heiling anybody, but I am convinced that Big Jim was purely indulging in a bit of fun. He should not be attacked for that. Having said this, I have total respect for Victorhauser's sensitivity. Many aspects of German history during that period are still subject to great controversy. Being a democrat (not as in "democratic party", but as in believing in democracy) I can not support or sympathize with any type of totalitarian regime. Having said that, the German Military had superiority in many areas during the early and middle years of the war, and German soldiers fought mostly competently and with tenacity. It is only right that this should be reflected in the game. Many people will have picked up different strands of opinion about German history, and will feel inclined to sympathize with sections of the German population or military apparatus by isolating them from the evils of Nazism using some appropriate formula (as in the Wehrmacht vs. Waffen SS vs. Allgemeine SS argument or the special treatment given to the Afrika Korps and Rommel). One can disagree with them but, in a democracy, they are entitled to their opinions. My own son, who is 12 years old and lives with his mother ( of German extraction) is one of these people. We disagree on this and I hope that growing up will give him a more balanced less ambiguous view. However, I strongly suspect that at the root of his admiration for the German Army is his total love affair with the King Tiger tank. What is a father to do? [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited 06-15-2000).] [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited 06-15-2000).]

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Post #: 17
- 6/16/2000 3:55:00 AM   
U235


Posts: 103
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Status: offline 		Has anyone noticed if troops riding inside a HT take casualties when there is a shell pass-through? I know the ground pounders usually dismount an there can be losses then. Just wondered if anyone ever saw the troops stay in the HT a take losses. About the other issue mentioned here, my hats off to the folks at Matrix (and a few other companies) for showing the national flags of the participants of the conflict. To many software companies "white wash" their products, in an attempt to clean things up. While we can deeply respect the common fighting man we should always be reminded of the madness that caused the war. I think it could safely be said that every nation has some dirt on it, no country is squeaky clean. Now let's have fun and learn, that's why we are here. You guys are the best, never seen more dedicated fans at a forum.

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Post #: 18
- 6/16/2000 5:46:00 AM   
talon

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 5/16/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Well U-235 you may be impressed with these flags but as a german I would like to have other flags for Germany . Because of these flags its not possible to talk on this game on german forums and the game can´t be reviewed at any german wargame site because these flags are illegal in Germany . So as you plan a german file mabye the flag could be changed ?

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Post #: 19
- 6/16/2000 6:26:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		That is supposed to be changed in this version. Let me verify that for you, Talon. I'll get back to this posting as soon as I know...Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 20
- 6/16/2000 6:41:00 AM   
U235


Posts: 103
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Status: offline 		Talon, perhaps an easy way to replace the icon (with something suitable) would be in order, then if anyone found it offensive, or as in your case illegal, there wouldn't be a problem. I do see your point. My point was a statement against censorship, not my own personal preferance or belives (I'm not into symbology). Didn't mean to push any buttons in your neck of the woods.

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Post #: 21
- 6/16/2000 3:58:00 PM   
talon

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 5/16/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I wanted only to mention with my post that these flags are a problem with the law here in Germany !! I don´t have any problem that you and maybe many others like the use of the real flags U-235 . I had the flag think in my mind since german wargamesites said they couldn´t review the game and then came to the conclusion that the the game wasn´t got because they only saw new flags . Thats when I became upset because this is a great game and sofar the best I´ve played this year at last and the flags are the least important in this great game . So you see I had nothing against you but wanted only to show that there are negativ effects for the game because of these here in Germany . I personally can live with the new ones . I hope you put in the new flags for Germany because I think this will improve the reactions on the game here .

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Post #: 22
- 6/16/2000 4:13:00 PM   
Belaja smert

 

Posts: 483
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by talon: I hope you put in the new flags for Germany because I think this will improve the reactions on the game here .
I understand the problem you have with the old flag in Germany, but I think that using the new flag should be an OPTION ONLY. I like historical flags better, not that I support the ideas they represent. If we start to take out historical flags, where will it end? The old Soviet flag could be seen as offensive too! Belaja smert

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Post #: 23
- 6/16/2000 4:52:00 PM   
Recon_slith


Posts: 116
Joined: 4/3/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		Well, I absolutely loathe censorship and if it were up to me such Nanny laws could take a flying jump- they can't stop an internet distribution and as for not being able to be discussed on German based forums, well that will be a good trick. Fat chance. Has any subject ever been stopped on the Net(rhetorical question)? Reviews? Scarcely vital, albeit useful. It will stick in my craw if it's done, but it's not up to me. If it is done, the use of the Iron Cross decoration on a white background should suffice. ------------------ Wait for Death. There's a choice? Recon

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Post #: 24
- 6/17/2000 1:20:00 AM   
Kharan

 

Posts: 505
Joined: 5/9/2000
Status: offline 		I suggest Matrix releases a different version for germans to download without the symbols. I get very depressed even thinking of german censorship laws and do not want to be reminded of it when playing SPWAW.

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Post #: 25
- 6/17/2000 1:33:00 AM   
Spunkgibbon

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 5/8/2000
Status: offline 		If there's going to be different language .exe files for SPW@W v2 then the German version could include an icon file with the iron cross type flag instead of the swastika. All the other versions could keep the swastika or have the option of using either. Then everyone's happy.

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Post #: 26
- 6/17/2000 1:44:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Gentlemen, Again, let this rest. I am trying to get some definitive answers about the patch and if this matter is addressed. I'll give you the "skinny" (info) as soon as I have it. I understand all the concern. I share it with you. We are trying to get an official statement on what will or will not be done. Stand by, please...Thanks! WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 27
- 6/17/2000 2:08:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		The Word! Okay, directly by phone from David Heath, head of Matrix. 1. All the swastikas from any of the web pages of Matrix have been removed. 2. A patch will be included in the upcoming Version 2.0 called Iron Cross Icon Patch. With this little program you will have the option of removing all swastikas from the SPWAW game and replacing them with Iron Crosses. This solution does not force the issue upon anyone. You will have a choice. If you prefer the swastikas removed, you can do so with the patch. If you choose to leave them, you can. This way no one is depriving you of your ability to choose. I think it is a nice option. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 28
- 6/17/2000 6:39:00 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		Re: Flags If a U of South Africa OOB is done, please use the old flag, the Vierkleur, rather than the new Post-1994 flag. The new flag is prettier, but the old one is more historically accurate. There is no law anywhere against displaying it as there is about the swastika. BTW, what do they do about pre 1930's versions of Kipling's books and Tibetan and Hindu items that contain the swastika? Also, I understand that the Yugoslav and Romanian flags are the communist ones. Could that be changed? Sorry if this is OT for this thread. troopie

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Post #: 29
- 6/17/2000 6:56:00 AM   
U235


Posts: 103
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Status: offline 		WB, great solution I think. Talon, I didn't take your post the wrong way, I just wanted to be sure you didn't take mine wrong. That's the bad thing about the written word (vice spoken), especialy since many different cultures are represented here in this forum. But that's one of the reasons I enjoy coming here, and I value everyones opinion. Good gaming!

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Post #: 30
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