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German Cavalry in late war battles??

 
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German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 3:42:34 AM   
Adamo

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 3/14/2002
Status: offline 		I'm in the middle of a PBEM battle as the Soviets against Germany in Oct '44 and my opponent purchased quite a bit of cavalry units and I am having a hard time against them. They are fighting very well against rifle squads and SMG squads alike. I'm just wondering how realistic this is. I even fired at them a few times from about 5 or 6 hexes with IS-2s and could even 'pin' them. (just to let you know, the cavalry units weren't 'in cover' or in good defensive terrain)

Just wondering whether cavalry was used by Germany against the Soviets in late-war battles and whether cavalry units performance in this game is 'realistic' in general.

Thanks

adam
Post #: 1
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 1:40:55 PM   
Veroporo

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 10/20/2002
Status: offline 		And I doubt that cavalry would have used their horses on battle :) Image a shell landing near your horse and here you go, straight towards fatherland several hundred yards. Imo, the new cavalry as transport-system sounds more realistic if somebody just bothered to use it as it isn't as good as the cavalry which may shoot from horses.

And about cavalry history I know almost nothing =)

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 2:24:30 PM   
Warrior2


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		On the History Channel the other night it mentioned the use of horses by the Germans in the beginning of the war, because they hadn't the German economy wasn't on a war-footing yet. They were used mainly for transportation until more trucks became available. I think Cavalry used by nearly any country in the late war is probably unrealistic.

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 4:32:47 PM   
Rune Iversen


Posts: 3630
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From: Copenhagen. Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrior
I think Cavalry used by nearly any country in the late war is probably unrealistic.


Horsed cavalry and large scale hippotrain logistics remained in use by both Germany and USSR untill the end. The only ones achieving almost total motorization/mechanization were the western allies.

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 8:02:08 PM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		I think both the USSR and Germany found cavalry useful on the Eastern front because of the mobility of horse troops in an environment with little in the way of roads. You can also forage for horse-feed, and in a pinch the horse can be used to supplement rations ! I've read that the Germans used cavalry extensively in anti-partisan operations.

However, in the game cavalry is very effective in low vis environments like forests ... maybe too effective? As previously mentioned, cavalry in WWII would never fight from the horse. Best solution (as I think has been done somewhere?) is to use horses as a seperate transportation unit instead of an integrated "infantry with greater speed" unit.

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 8:15:47 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		If we had horses for transportation. A great idea. I would use them more then trucks. As they are great for off road travel. How would this be able to work tho. Would you have ten horses for a squad.

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 8:17:57 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Most nations have wagons and/or mule packs. Only nuisance is that they are rather slow.

Voriax

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 8:54:23 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

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From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		I believe , and I am a little vague on the details , but IIRC "The Last Cavalry Charge" is actually crediited to a US Army Cav unit in the Philipines shortly before they fell to the Japanese in early 1942. May be the Last US Cav Charge I dunno

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 8:56:17 PM   
Rune Iversen


Posts: 3630
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From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

I believe , and I am a little vague on the details , but IIRC "The Last Cavalry Charge" is actually crediited to a US Army Cav unit in the Philipines shortly before they fell to the Japanese in early 1942. May be the Last US Cav Charge I dunno


I think it was the last US one.

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Post #: 9
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/10/2004 11:12:51 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		To answer the question, the game doesn't model cavalry very well they don't take casualties as they should and can run through cities like they are not even there. Players know this and some will use them allot. Yes armys had them and used them untill the end of the war . But a moving cavalry squad takes less damage from modern weapons than it should. Bicycle infantry are even worse. They sometimes will not even take damge from flame tank, on the flip side sometimes bicycle infantry all die with one shot. Early war I can see allot on the battle field late war not so much.

< Message edited by VikingNo2 -- 3/10/2004 11:15:09 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/11/2004 12:14:30 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veroporo

And I doubt that cavalry would have used their horses on battle :) Image a shell landing near your horse and here you go, straight towards fatherland several hundred yards. Imo, the new cavalry as transport-system sounds more realistic if somebody just bothered to use it as it isn't as good as the cavalry which may shoot from horses.

And about cavalry history I know almost nothing =)


You have just described the concept of Dragoons. :)

I don't think neither Germany nor USSR used Cavalry for front line duty at the end of the war, save for some odd/distinguished recon unit.

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Post #: 11
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/11/2004 3:56:07 PM   
frank1970


Posts: 1678
Joined: 9/1/2000
From: Bayern
Status: offline 		http://www.feldgrau.com/heerkav.html

YOu could have a look here.
Feldgrau.com is a great page, full with information.

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/11/2004 9:11:02 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
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From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

I believe , and I am a little vague on the details , but IIRC "The Last Cavalry Charge" is actually crediited to a US Army Cav unit in the Philipines shortly before they fell to the Japanese in early 1942. May be the Last US Cav Charge I dunno


3rd Army in France last use of Cavalry by US. George mounted one of the old Cavalry Units (recon) on local mounts to drive the Germans out of a marshy area because the area was unsuitable for vehicals.

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Post #: 13
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/14/2004 7:06:48 AM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		The German SS Cavalry Brigade was sent to Budapest in Winter of 44-45. There were several thousand horses in the city. Many of the horses were eaten.

There were also a couple of Italian cavalry charges in (I think) 43.

The last British cavalry charge was in the Pacific. Cpt Sandeman. Not a pretty outcome.

A great book on WW2 cavalry is "The Cavalry 1939-1945" by Janusz Piekalkiewicz.

With respect to German horse transport. The German army was not mechanized and was very reliant upon horse-drawn logistics. Eventually, losses of horses were not sustainable, and horses from German which were not suited to the task were impressed and did not fare well. It seems that I read in Carell that there were something on the order of a million casualties among horses. Also the logistics to feed horses was amazingly difficult to accomplish. Truck loads or railcar loads of grain and hay were often required to feed the horses.... a tremendously expensive operation.

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Post #: 14
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/15/2004 12:01:52 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

http://www.feldgrau.com/heerkav.html

YOu could have a look here.
Feldgrau.com is a great page, full with information.


mhh.. not much info on the use of cav in late war...
only some unit names

or am i missing something there ?

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Post #: 15
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/15/2004 12:09:24 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

To answer the question, the game doesn't model cavalry very well they don't take casualties as they should and can run through cities like they are not even there. Players know this and some will use them allot. Yes armys had them and used them untill the end of the war . But a moving cavalry squad takes less damage from modern weapons than it should. Bicycle infantry are even worse. They sometimes will not even take damge from flame tank, on the flip side sometimes bicycle infantry all die with one shot. Early war I can see allot on the battle field late war not so much.


mhh. i´m playing a PBM in 1947 US against germany

my opp also have lot´s of cav.

i also have a hard time there ( but probably also
because of the fact that this player has a playing style
similar to yours which doen´t suit me very good )

also i was only able to kill one jagdtiger by air force
in this game, they are really dangerous.

but okay this game is a hypothetical one.

but also much PBM´s doesn´t play very historic, or ?

mostly the players purchase the units they want ( if
rarety doens´t prevent it ) and don´t care about really
used units on this battlefield in this time.

but PBM´s are not there to recreate history, you can
agree on historic battles before the game and make
guidelines but the majority of games aren´t historic.

therefore are the scen in camps.

at the site "the blitz wargaming club" you
can find an article about buying guidelines
for historic PBM´s.

thoughts ?

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Post #: 16
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/15/2004 12:12:38 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		also i might ask if it can be changed that cav units can be in building ?

as well heavy mortars and 88mm flaks seems not right for me.

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Post #: 17
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/15/2004 2:32:03 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		The game models buildings as a hex with buildings inside.
The hex with a 'wooden building' also has all the other construction around the wooden building such as fences, walls, wells, sheds, ditches, woodpiles, gardens, etc.

Check out the scale of the hex at 50m and measure that 'building'. You'll not see many wooden houses in WW2 Europe that are 20m square.

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Post #: 18
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/15/2004 2:34:57 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

I believe , and I am a little vague on the details , but IIRC "The Last Cavalry Charge" is actually crediited to a US Army Cav unit in the Philipines shortly before they fell to the Japanese in early 1942. May be the Last US Cav Charge I dunno


Probably the last US Army cavalry charge, maybe.
I read recently that there was a cavalry charge by Northern alliance forces relatively recently.

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They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 19
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/16/2004 5:34:41 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Well...I set up a test scenario with a russian platoon+MMG SG43 dug in and defending against a (AI) german cavalry squadroon (13 Squads/troops) in october 1944. While charging at high speed, the german cavalry was close to be immune to russian small arms fire at ranges of about 4-6 hexes although at last they took very light losses when assuming what big target silhouette the cavalry normally provides (size=3). At the same time the germans (AI) blasted half of the russian platoon out of its trenches in turns 1-2, with their K98 carbines and MG34 LMG all blazing (from the back of horses!), still at ranges of 3-4 hexes. Also the SG43 MMG was a prefered target of the german cavalry, resulting of it beeing destroyed at the end of turn2 while on the retreat from its initial (entrenchment) hex.

If I wouldn´t know the "imperfect" SPWAW game system, I would assume the russians were quite "cavalry shocked", while the german cavalry was in fact "SS armored cavalry", resulting in an overall "feel" that things are MOST LIKELY not quite as they should.

Otherwise, as VikingNo2 already mentioned it, the SPWAW "cavalry" (beside other unit classes) never worked satisfactory and is just in there for the sake of "completeness".

If I´m ever going tp play some PBEM SPWAW game, the first thing I would request from my opponent is not to use/purchase at least the worst game cheaters, like Wurfrahmen, aircraft, cavalry, ect., otherwise he/she better looks for another "opponent".

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RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/18/2004 2:05:18 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		mhh.. now running 2 PBM´s as GER in which i also bought some CAV...
let´s see if they really so good. i bought them mainly for recon
though i think that was their historical task so it should not
be called cheating, or ?

(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 21
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/18/2004 3:20:20 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Recon, and screening are a good uses of cavalry, but the way the game modles them you can use them as effective shock troops even against armor

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Post #: 22
RE: German Cavalry in late war battles?? - 3/18/2004 6:59:42 PM   
Veroporo

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 10/20/2002
Status: offline 		And because cavalry is pretty fast it can be used as cheap tank support infantry. :/

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Post #: 23
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