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Choosing units for campaign games? - 5/30/2004 4:49:40 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Im a total newbie and at the moment dont really know what units to choose when playing a campaign game. Im sticking to the scenarios at the moment.

Its a shame there isnt a pre defined set up to use for newbies for each campaign.
Post #: 1
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 5/30/2004 3:46:34 PM   
Maciste

 

Posts: 81
Joined: 3/5/2004
Status: offline 		I'd suggest you to play your first long campaign with Germans. They have very good tanks, artillery and infantry. I'd buy something like:
Armor: 2 or 3 platoons of PzkwIII supported by same number of platoons or sections (it depends on how much points you got and how you want to use them) of PzkwIV.
AT guns: I'd buy 3 platoons of 3.7 cm (at the beginning of the campaign they'll suffice). I'd suggest you tu improve soon half of each platoon to 8.8 AT, which are hard to move, but have a very long range and can be deployed out of the range of early enemy infantry or armor. The other half could be retained as 3.7, and later upgraded to 5 cm and 7.5, for they are easier to move than 8.8, thus allowing to conceal or redeploying them on field if necessary.
AA guns: It's a matter of preferences. Heavy AA guns can kill a little aircraft (Stukas, Henschel 123) with a single shot, but they are slow firing, and a lot of times miss the shot. They can serve quite well as AT guns, but in this role they're easily spotted by the enemy and attract a lot of counterbattery fire. On the other way, light AA guns cannot kill with a single shot, but they are faster thus allowing them to hit several times a plane, and have average performance against infantry or light armored units. On later stages of war, multiple AA mountings as the Flakvierling (quadruple 2 cm cannon mounting) are deadly infantry choppers. ;)
Infantry: I'd buy infantry with some AT capability (in case of Germany, PanzerGrenadier or Engineer/Pioneer). When playing Germany, buy them MECHANIZED if possible, for the halftracks give the infantry some protection, a lot of speed on every kind of terrain, and also contributes to your defense with limited AA or against infantry capability, due to their machine gun.
And now, if you've got some points left, I'd recommend to buy some machine guns more if you like to improve your attacking power against infantry, or some field artillery for deploying smoking or firing curtains that protect your infantry.

Hope I've helped you (without boring you). ;)

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 2
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 5/30/2004 5:02:51 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Thanks for the reply:)

(in reply to Maciste)
Post #: 3
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 5/30/2004 9:02:02 PM   
Beppo

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 4/20/2004
Status: offline 		What units you buy in your campaign core should depend upon your playing style. Me, I like a strong infantry presence to attack or defend with, and a light mobile reserve to plug holes or exploit a breach. Favored units are motorcycles and tankettes. 'Course, I like to play the Italians (set up as Germans but switch nation in the purchase screen), and they don't have many REAL tanks to choose from. I also like to buy some Inf guns to upgrade later to the awesome 90mm AA guns. Oh, and my favored artillery is the 81mm MTRs, which break units just fine and are relatively inexpensive.

I've seen lots of advice for purchasing a core, but a favored theme is to "buy cheap and upgrade later".

Play a nation that interests you. The campaign will take a LONG time to play through.

Consider getting a supply unit in your core to keep your onboard arty plugging away. It's a little cost inefficient later in the campaign (who wants to pay for an elite supply unit?!?!), but I end up either buying one in my core, or buying one every single battle with my support points.

Start small -- 1000 points or so. That will allow you to play through your first abortive campaign more quickly, so you can see what works best for you.

-- Beppo

(in reply to Maciste)
Post #: 4
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 5/31/2004 10:28:31 PM   
Tequila

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 5/8/2003
Status: offline 		I wouldn't jump into a huge campaign right away.I really recommend Heroes of the Motherland after you have played some scenarios and learned the game a bit. I had a great time with HotM, It has 5-7 scenarios depending on how well you do with some nice variety like the Cossack raid. Have fun and experiment before a huge campaign. Learn to love and use recon and backup your tanks with infantry.

If you want to play the germans I highly recommend playing the Stalingrad campaign. It is a long campaign but has a lot of variety including one huge tank battle, a nasty encounter with russian women utilizing flak guns and ending with intense infantry city fights. This is where you learn the value of flame tanks and infantry working together. I wrote my experiences with it here if you want to get an idea of what core force I used: http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/search.asp

Good luck :)

(in reply to Beppo)
Post #: 5
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/1/2004 3:59:54 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Tequila

Ive just played Meeting with Devils. What other scenarios do you think I should try next. Give me a good list if possible amy be five or six.

Thanks

(in reply to Tequila)
Post #: 6
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/1/2004 10:33:20 PM   
FNG


Posts: 514
Joined: 1/3/2002
From: Devizes, UK
Status: offline 		I play WWII campaigns quite a lot, and I've found it quite good to build my force in 'blocks' depending on how big a force I want. Each block comprises of:

Infantry company (foot) with light mortars, MGs & Inf AT (if available)
1 x Engineer platoon
3 x 2-man scout teams
1 x FO
8-10 tanks (depends on national TO&E)
2 x AA with trucks
2 x AT with trucks
6-8 medium mortars
Ammo truck

One 'block' makes for a fun small scale campaign and gives you opportunities for practising combined arms. This template can be tinkered with once you develop your own preferences a bit more, and to take advantage of each nation's strengths and weaknesses. Most of all, have fun.

< Message edited by FNG -- 6/1/2004 8:34:06 PM >

_____________________________

FNG
Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 7
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/2/2004 1:01:09 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		FNG, I like this "block"-buying method, too. I have my USMC and German OOBs set up with pre-defined reinforced infantry companies as part of the formations menu. You could also call this the "modular" method. Once you play a few campaigns, setting up your customized "Combat Group" or "Task Force" or whatever you want to call it becomes second nature.

With 8.2, I've gotten the purchase menus worked down to a science--in the default USMC long campaign in 1942, you get 4280 points: I spend every point. Same goes for the 3100 points you get with the Germans in Sept 1939.

_____________________________


(in reply to FNG)
Post #: 8
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/2/2004 10:59:46 AM   
Marek Tucan


Posts: 758
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Kladno, Czech Republic
Status: offline 		I usually play either USSR or USA/UK, I just don't like playing the Germans in WW2. My force composition then looks like this:
USSR:
2x Medium and 1x mixed Heavy/Light thank company (generally I assign HT platoon to every MT company and LTs used for recon)
motor/mech inf company
4-6 AT-Guns
2 DP heavy AAA - 85mm
4 SPAA if possible
some arty/SPA (beginning with ZIS-3 FG, then usually going for 122mm pieces and SU-whatever)

For the support points I buy usually ob artillery and infantry, plus armored cars/APCs for recon

USA:
1x LT company (or mixed with arm. cars)
1-2 MT company
TDs - from battery to company (depends on the nuimber of tanks)
Armor inf company
2 90mm AA guns if available
some SPAA
engineer tanks
artillery (usually M7 Priest HMC or guns on Halftracks)

_____________________________

Tuccy

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 9
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/2/2004 10:20:13 PM   
Hunpecked

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2001
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Status: offline 		I agree with Beppo: Start small and cheap, do upgrades, get a supply truck within the first few scenarios.

For my 1939 German campaign (version 7.1) I bought a Panzer company (mostly Panzer I), a motorized infantry company, and a couple of kuebel sections for upgrades later (mostly SP mortars). A small starting force meant smaller scenarios and faster play. I upgraded A0 to a Panzer IIIe for the second scenario (used WAWED to exchange armor and infantry skills) which "saved" another 129 points. Half the fun of the campaign was in the constant upgrading, especially those pathetic Panzer I's. The first year on the Russian Front was especially hairy. Endless upgrades (with consequent loss of experience) also slowed the growth of my core into unbeatable uber-units.

I disagree with Tequila about doing a canned campaign first. You're still playing against the AI of course, but a good designer "helps" the AI with a picked OB, diabolical deployment, and surprise counterattacks. A campaign is only fresh the first time you play it, so you should go in as a veteran. I haven't played the Stalingrad campaign that comes with SPWAW, but the version by Bryan Melvin and Brent Richards at The Arsenal is a real b**ch. Had I played it as a newbie, I would have been toast. What I learned from the scenarios and the (relatively) easier long campaign has helped me survive the first few scenarios of Stalingrad, and even do a little upgrading.

(in reply to Marek Tucan)
Post #: 10
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/3/2004 6:32:47 PM   
Tequila

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 5/8/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hunpecked
I disagree with Tequila about doing a canned campaign first. You're still playing against the AI of course, but a good designer "helps" the AI with a picked OB, diabolical deployment, and surprise counterattacks. A campaign is only fresh the first time you play it, so you should go in as a veteran. I haven't played the Stalingrad campaign that comes with SPWAW, but the version by Bryan Melvin and Brent Richards at The Arsenal is a real b**ch. Had I played it as a newbie, I would have been toast. What I learned from the scenarios and the (relatively) easier long campaign has helped me survive the first few scenarios of Stalingrad, and even do a little upgrading.


I look at it the other way around :) I learned way more in the Stalingrad campaign(the one by Bryan Melvin) because of the intelligent design than I did playing many many endless hours of a random generated campaign. As long as you play a few smaller canned campaigns before Stalingrad like HotM/WF you should be ok. Yes some of those Stalingrad scenarios are real butt kickers but it inspires you to improve your tactics and are valuable learning tools.

(in reply to Hunpecked)
Post #: 11
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/4/2004 1:51:51 AM   
Hunpecked

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2001
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tequila

I look at it the other way around :) I learned way more in the Stalingrad campaign(the one by Bryan Melvin) because of the intelligent design than I did playing many many endless hours of a random generated campaign.


Well, I've certainly learned from the Stalingrad Campaign, and I'm only 4 scenarios into it.

I should have qualified my advice to Wodin: If his primary goal is to get good at the generated campaigns (GCs), then he should certainly practice on the programmed campaigns (PCs) first. If he's like me, however, and considers the PCs as second only to MCs in play value, I suggest he practice on scenarios and GCs first.

Question for Tequila: Earlier in this thread you mentioned your writeup of the Stalingrad Campaign, and posted a link for a site search. I found 10 or so posts by "Tequila", but nothing on your campaign experience. Has the post disappeared from the forum, or did I just miss it?

(in reply to Tequila)
Post #: 12
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/4/2004 9:16:58 AM   
Tequila

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 5/8/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hunpecked
Question for Tequila: Earlier in this thread you mentioned your writeup of the Stalingrad Campaign, and posted a link for a site search. I found 10 or so posts by "Tequila", but nothing on your campaign experience. Has the post disappeared from the forum, or did I just miss it?


Yea the search feature on this board acts strange at times. Really sucks that I can't link the actual post either, it just takes you back to the search form

Try again and when you select the forum be sure to select "Search all Forums" and make sure the Time Filter is checked to "before" else it won't find my thread on Stalingrad. This was made back in 5/8/2003.

(in reply to Hunpecked)
Post #: 13
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/4/2004 10:34:50 AM   
Skeletor


Posts: 126
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Try this link.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=429482

(in reply to Tequila)
Post #: 14
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/5/2004 12:06:15 AM   
Hunpecked

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2001
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Status: offline 		Skeletor, thanks for the link. Works fine.

Tequila, you were right, I forgot to set the "before" button. BTW, I haven't reached the city yet, but at first glance your starting core does seem a tad light on infantry...and mortars...and tanks...and...and KUEBELWAGENS!

(in reply to Skeletor)
Post #: 15
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/6/2004 12:07:01 AM   
Tequila

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 5/8/2003
Status: offline 		That core force was fine, it evolved quite a bit during the campaign. It's been a while but as I recall I upgraded some of the FJ to regular rifle. The Russian SMG teams can lay the smack down so I didn't want too many expensive troops -- the PPSh is plain nasty in close quarters. The flametanks and AA got most of the kills as is usual for me when playing the Germans :) I believe I upgraded two Stug3/F to StuH42 for the 105mm anti-infantry howitzer. I also upgraded the snipers to FOs so I could lay down that mortar quickly and accurately.

I'm still not a huge fan of Stugs even though many people like them. They are cheap and small but they are turetless and have no smoke and only one machinegun. The good old PzIVs are much better. The StuH42 105mm is the one exception, it's such a nice anti-infantry gun.

What kind of core force did you choose?

(in reply to Hunpecked)
Post #: 16
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/6/2004 2:44:29 AM   
Hunpecked

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2001
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Status: offline 		Tequila,

I agree, though the StuG's price is attractive I still prefer the flexibility of a tank in most situations. I haven't had much experience with the StuH; I think I'll try it out in the city scenarios. Thanks for the advice.

As for my own core force, that's a long story. Before playing the Melvin/Richards Stalingrad Campaign I checked it in the campaign editor and discovered that the total replacement points amounted to more than twice the initial core allotment. Figuring my AUX forces could soak up most of my losses, I designed my initial core for substantial upgrades. My "final" core was to be a medium Panzer Company (Pz IVf2), two mech Panzergrenadier Companies, an FO, and some SP mortars and artillery. That meant I had to start out with a force that was about half Kuebelwagens (KW), which is why it seemed to me that your core was short of KWs.

Given the limitations of the unit purchase routine, it was quite a chore substituting KWs for all the units I couldn't afford while still maintaining platoon organization and leaders, etc. After considerable gymnastics (buy to the limit, sell a little, buy, sell, reassign, reassign, edit...) I got everything the way I wanted it. Unfortunately, my composite edited-from-hell force confused Campaign Watcher and WAWed no end, which would have made it difficult if not impossible to follow the campaign as I wanted.

So I tried a different approach. I took a copy of the switch scenario (the dummy one to go inside or outside the pocket) and stuck it at the beginnng of the campaign with plenty of "replacement" points. I gave myself unlimited purchase points and bought my entire "final" core force at the beginning. Then after "playing" the dummy scenario I used the replace/upgrade phase to cut my core down to the Melvin/Richards level while preserving the "final" organization. Campaign Watcher was happy, WAWed was happy, and I was happy. <-- Me

I also discovered advantages I hadn't anticipated. I upgraded my A0 to a Pz IVf2 and saved 94 (count 'em) points for other buys (I have always hated wasting 200 @#$% points at the beginning of a campaign for a unit I'm going to upgrade anyway). I also substituted regular infantry squads for the MMGs (too fragile) and saved a few more points there. The disadvantages of course include the effort to edit the campaign and the loss of experience with the unit substitutions and downgrades. Overall, however, this is such a slick way to pick a core that I may try it with other campaigns.

So to make a long story short (too late), I started with a Pz IVf2 A0, a Pz IVf2 Company at under half strength, two mech Panzergrenadier Companies without transport or SP AA, 6 additional SdKfz 251/2 mortars, a mech FO, and a horde of deadly Kuebelwagens.

< Message edited by Hunpecked -- 6/6/2004 12:45:54 AM >

(in reply to Tequila)
Post #: 17
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/6/2004 8:21:23 AM   
Tequila

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 5/8/2003
Status: offline 		Wow that sounds messy . I hope you didn't upgrade those kubelwagens to inf or artillery? They make good upgrades for armor but have lousy inf and artillery command numbers.

I chose one company of infantry and two platoons of armor because that was that was recommended in the the campaign description when you first start it.

< Message edited by Tequila -- 6/6/2004 6:22:59 AM >

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 18
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/6/2004 9:44:31 PM   
Mangudai


Posts: 360
Joined: 3/12/2004
From: The Middle West
Status: offline 		I just learned not to rely on support points, sometimes you don't get any.

I was playing Heros of the Motherland, and I didn't include any infantry in my core force. I figured I'd buy them with support points depending on the situation. Then on the fourth or fifth battle I don't get any support, in other words no infantry.

(in reply to Tequila)
Post #: 19
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/7/2004 2:18:38 AM   
Hunpecked

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2001
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Status: offline 		Tequila,

Although the campaign modification was complicated the first time through, the result was actually less "messy" than trying to get the core I wanted using SPWAW's "messy" purchase/reassignment procedures. I wound up with three perfectly organized companies with placeholder Kuebels in just the right places. Now that I know how to do it, I can easily apply the same approach to other campaigns, or to further modifications of the Stalingrad Campaign.

You're right, the designers suggest two tank platoons and an infantry company. However, as Oberst Hunpecked of the Wehrmacht, I thought like a Russian and decided that if one infantry company is good, two are even better!

As for upgrading the Kuebels, I intend to exchange all of them for vehicles (halftracks, AFVs, ammo trucks, or SP arty). If I do switch one for infantry or engineers, I'll just edit the unit to exchange the armor and infantry skills. That's what I did with A0 when I made it a Pz IVf2. I made sure the core infantry was complete at the start, partly because of the problems upgrading from Kueblels, and partly to give them maximum opportunity to gain experience.

(in reply to Tequila)
Post #: 20
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/7/2004 2:43:18 AM   
Hunpecked

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 2/26/2001
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Status: offline 		Mangudai,

I sympathize. My commander in the Stalingrad Campaign promised to provide transport for my infantry, but he didn't count on my Aryan ingenuity: I bought TWO infantry companies instead of the one he expected.

Well, I dealt with the problem, but that's another long story.

Anyway, I learned not to trust the promises of my incompetent "superior" officers. Before starting a programmed campaign, I use the editor to check the individual scenario build and AUX points. I've also learned to buy my core defensively, e.g. even if I'm supposed to buy an armor-heavy force, I try to get at least a little infantry and arty/mortars, just in case. As a bonus, if the "useless" core units survive long enough they tend to be more experienced than what I can buy with AUX points.

(in reply to Mangudai)
Post #: 21
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/9/2004 7:00:01 AM   
RayM

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 10/19/2000
From: Marlton, NJ USA
Status: offline 		Hello KG:

Will your USMC core unit list change when 8.2 is released? BTW, the list you sent me some time ago has worked out very well in two campaigns.

Ray

(in reply to Hunpecked)
Post #: 22
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/16/2004 9:42:23 AM   
tigerblow


Posts: 14
Joined: 8/27/2003
Status: offline 		I learned more!
thx!

(in reply to RayM)
Post #: 23
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/23/2004 7:52:31 PM   
mavraam


Posts: 436
Joined: 5/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

One 'block' makes for a fun small scale campaign and gives you opportunities for practising combined arms. This template can be tinkered with once you develop your own preferences a bit more, and to take advantage of each nation's strengths and weaknesses. Most of all, have fun.


I'm a little confused by how this system works. Are you saying that if I don't use the full alotment of purchasing units, the AI will also use fewer units to match?
Or will the AI use the same no matter what in which case I should try to spend everything I can?

I would prefer to fight with fewer units while I learn the game system.

Also, is the game realistic enough that I will be in big trouble if I only choose tanks? Do combined arms actually have more effective fighting power than an equivalent value of tanks only?

_____________________________


(in reply to FNG)
Post #: 24
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/23/2004 8:45:52 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		Yepper, Mavraam.

If you want a small game, then don't buy the max allowed. The AI may still get more stuff depending on the mission and settings, but I believe that it is scaled.

Tanks alone will quickly become terrain features if you don't employ them with artillery and infantry. Think scissors-paper-rock. I think there are some tutorials that Wild Bill made to demonstrate this.

(in reply to mavraam)
Post #: 25
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/23/2004 8:48:04 PM   
Yamashita

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/21/2004
Status: offline 		Before you even go into Single player play, click Preferences
There is a boxx with XXXXs in it that allows you to set players force points-I forget the exact label now.
Just set it to say 1200 pts (what I'm using) the AI forces are scaled to your force points- so you don't have to adjust AI points yourself.

Try 1200 or so & start a campaign, & see if that gives you the size of force you would like. You will also get support points in each mission of course but these too are scaled to your core force.

i like these smaller forces myseld-more like the orig SP games should play out quicker & it'll be easier to keep track of units & watch how they perform & improve etc.

G' Luck!

(in reply to mavraam)
Post #: 26
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/23/2004 9:42:31 PM   
mavraam


Posts: 436
Joined: 5/11/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks!

Last night I did first scenario in the long campaign as Germans using all the units I could buy (3800 pts?) and was COMPLETELY overwhelmed with trying to keep track of them.

Tonight, I'll start over with a more manageable size. 1200 points sounds perfect as I would say I had about 3-4 times more than I wanted.

Thanks again for your help. This game rocks, I can't believe its free!

_____________________________


(in reply to Yamashita)
Post #: 27
RE: Choosing units for campaign games? - 6/24/2004 3:24:53 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RayM

Hello KG:

Will your USMC core unit list change when 8.2 is released? BTW, the list you sent me some time ago has worked out very well in two campaigns.

Ray


Ray, I'll be sending you an e-mail this evening.

_____________________________


(in reply to RayM)
Post #: 28
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