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Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker

 
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Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 4:11:04 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I've got some Chinese LCU's that have been broken down, then recombined.
Now their size and strength have increased! Over time I was hoping they would return to normal. They haven't!

This has been brought up before. Is it going to be fixed?

THIS IS A GAME BREAKER. A player can turn an ordinary division into a corps size unit
with a few clicks of the mouse.

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RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 4:26:19 AM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		How?? In all the tests I've done in China I've never seen this. I posted and argued extensively about China and I can't ever remember hearing about this. I went back and played around dividing and recombining units in China and it seems to work just fine.

So how is it done??

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Post #: 2
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 5:56:30 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Find a unit that has had casualties from combat.***
Break it down then recombine. It can be done multiple times. I've experimented.
Now I have a Chinese Corps with an AV of 6000!

Nationality doesn't seem to matter. Not all units will do this, only some.
Try it with units all over.

I also have a US Div (now corps sized), a Phillipino Div (now corps sized), 2 Chinese Divs (now corps sized), and 2 Chinese Corps (now army sized).
My Japanese opponent has also reported that a couple of his Divs are now oversized.
Everything in the units makeup increases, including its supplies.

This pretty much buggers the game, as an unsrcupulous player can multiply some of his ground forces for free.

This is from 2 upgraded version 1.5 games. Stock scenario 15 and 16, with no scenario mods.
Except AB's land movement mod.

< Message edited by Halsey -- 5/10/2005 7:51:20 AM >

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RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 6:53:13 AM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		Confirmed!!! Unbelievable!!!!!

I now have the 18th Japanese Division at Khota Buru with an assault strength of 7151!!!

Havn't gotten a Chinese unit to do it yet but it only took 40 minutes to reproduce the bug just be dividing each unit after a major combat.

I just don't believe that this hasn't been reported before. It truly is a gamebreaker.

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Post #: 4
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 7:05:08 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Its only a gamebreaker if you allow it to be. Simple rule: Break a unit down, no rebuilding it. Problem solved. Then again, if you playing against someone that would use this exploit, then you are better off quitting (and finding a new opponant) IMHO.

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Post #: 5
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 7:07:35 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Why don't you just make sure the reinforcements are off after you split them? I do this with my air groups because I'm afraid I won't be able to bring them back together should they grow too large and unless reinforcements are coming regardless of the status of the toggle, I would think it would work for LCU's too.

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Post #: 6
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 7:08:30 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		For now, please avoid this as a house rule until we can confirm and examine. Thanks.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 7
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 7:13:17 AM   
moses

 

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Status: offline 		It doesn't appear that reinforcement are needed. My unit went to over 7000 inf squads in one turn. This was at game start so I don't think there was that much in the pool.

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RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 7:18:01 AM   
moses

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Its only a gamebreaker if you allow it to be. Simple rule: Break a unit down, no rebuilding it. Problem solved. Then again, if you playing against someone that would use this exploit, then you are better off quitting (and finding a new opponant) IMHO.


The problem is I suspect most players would do this accedentally and not even notice until days later. I break down a unit and then change my mind. I would never have thought that there could be a problem and might not always notice that my strength has changed. Some days or weeks later I notice I have a double strength unit running around.

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RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 7:43:09 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks Erik!
Wasn't sure if it WAS a bug. So I initially posted in another thread.


I

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Post #: 10
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 7:47:45 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Pretty tough to monitor this one hugger.
Most of the time it's not really noticed till way after the fact.
It's only after the unit becomes really huge that it seems wacked out.

Everything in the unit multiplies. TO&E and supplies.



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Post #: 11
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 12:26:31 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		HI
Is from a game started under 1.4 and then upgraded to 1.5. or from a game started new under 1.5?

And, if I understand correctly, that it only seems to happen to LCUs with less than 100% of their TOE?

Michael

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Post #: 12
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 1:30:57 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Hi, I'm IJ in one of Halsey's games. This is the third IJA division this has happened to. In all three cases the divisions were at like 98/100 beforehand. One was in Peking, one in Manila, and now this latest one in Colombo. I broke the division down to see what unit would now be on top of the stack, didn't like what I saw, and recombined. I didn't notice until I saw the AV during the LCU combat phase that my division was now supersized. It is now something like 240/252.

We started our game with 1.3, upgraded to 1.4 and now to 1.5. I think we have had units grow in all three versions. I reported this after it happened the first time and was told it was "on the list".

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 5/10/2005 2:14:51 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 2:10:48 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Hi, I'm IJ in one of Halsey's games. This is the third IJA division this has happened to. In all three cases the divisions were at like 98/100 beforehand.


The Division I just had this happen to was also probably at about 98% or so strength. Had just taken Khota Buru from the at start forces there.

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Post #: 14
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 2:13:53 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Looking back, I see the first IJA division it happened to in our game was at 49/50 at the time. I think where the unit is located probably has more to do with this than its strength does.

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Post #: 15
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 3:29:20 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Yes.
I have managed (by trial and error, and sweat, and a particular sequence of events...) to get it happen to any LCUs.

Believe it or not, it is not just a simple case of split and rebuild to get this to happen.

Michael

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Post #: 16
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 4:23:33 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Has anyone seen this in 1.5? (not a game upgraded)

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RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 8:31:04 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

I've got some Chinese LCU's that have been broken down, then recombined.
Now their size and strength have increased! Over time I was hoping they would return to normal. They haven't!


Holy cow, too bad I can't use this to create an abundant/experience Japanese pilot pool. The world would be mine

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Post #: 18
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 8:54:05 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		Yes. I thought Halsey was seeing things so I tested it out on newly patched scenario 15 last night. I just shut off all aircraft and starting smacking ground units into each other. About the forth day I got the 18th Japanese Division to over 7000AV. I have a save but am not at home and won't be until tomorrow evening.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Has anyone seen this in 1.5? (not a game upgraded)


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Post #: 19
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 9:55:30 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Yes. I thought Halsey was seeing things so I tested it out on newly patched scenario 15 last night. I just shut off all aircraft and starting smacking ground units into each other. About the forth day I got the 18th Japanese Division to over 7000AV. I have a save but am not at home and won't be until tomorrow evening.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Has anyone seen this in 1.5? (not a game upgraded)





Yup - easily reproducible in 1.5 ... 18 IJA Division is good candidate for test since it sees combat immediately. Had 18 Div up to 7000+ strength by 12/10/41 ... but it does want a lot of supply - so for those who don't like house rules and wish to take advantage of this exploit make sure you have lots of supply !


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Post #: 20
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 10:40:19 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks moses and jwilkerson. I appreciate the backup on this one.

I've become leary of posting possible bugs lately.
It's helped me to understand how people felt during the "Inquisition".

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Post #: 21
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 10:50:19 PM   
Yank


Posts: 175
Joined: 5/19/2004
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline 		Ack! This is indeed a 'gamebreaker'. I hope Mike Wood has some time to look into it. I assume this only happens when you divide and re-combine on purpose. Does anybody know if this happends when LCUs transported by sea re-combine at their destination point?

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Post #: 22
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 11:01:03 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Ack! This is indeed a 'gamebreaker'. I hope Mike Wood has some time to look into it. I assume this only happens when you divide and re-combine on purpose. Does anybody know if this happends when LCUs transported by sea re-combine at their destination point?


It requires a deliberate act by the player to cause. You have to divide 2 different units one after the other then repeatedly rebuild and divide the second unit to steal the data record from the first unit.

Mike already fixed one variation of this in 1.5.

If you accidently manage to cause this, you simply load back your save and adjust the order of your clicks to not repeat. That simple. If you suspect someone is exploiting this, flip me a save and I'll tell you flat out and you can go find an new PBEM partner.

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Post #: 23
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 11:17:13 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		I don't know it sure seemed easy to do to me. I think it only took two clicks (one to divide and one to recombine) to create the bug.

My concern would be that I would not have ever noticed this and gone on playing for some time before finding an extra large unit. With my luck my opponent notices something wrong before me and I get accused of cheating

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Post #: 24
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 11:20:46 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


Yup - easily reproducible in 1.5 ... 18 IJA Division is good candidate for test since it sees combat immediately. Had 18 Div up to 7000+ strength by 12/10/41 ... but it does want a lot of supply - so for those who don't like house rules and wish to take advantage of this exploit make sure you have lots of supply !


I'm not able to do anything tonight as I'll be at work till very late. It would be nice if someone could test just the 18th Division to see if the bug can be done by dividing only that division.

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RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 11:29:05 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

With my luck my opponent notices something wrong before me and I get accused of cheating


Moses, there is a rather obvious difference between it happening by accident and you doing it to a bunch of units. Cheaters rarely know when to quit and tend to make it rather obvious.

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Post #: 26
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 11:48:33 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		Ohh you're probably correct and its not that big of a deal. I never noticed it once in quite a bit of playing.


We just get sooo excited when we find a bug


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

With my luck my opponent notices something wrong before me and I get accused of cheating


Moses, there is a rather obvious difference between it happening by accident and you doing it to a bunch of units. Cheaters rarely know when to quit and tend to make it rather obvious.


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Post #: 27
RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 11:58:10 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Only if breaking down and later recombining is considered deliberate.
Some players, like Irrelevant, does it to change the stacking order of his attacking units.
Since the top stacked units take the heavy hits in land combat. It's not intentional.

If a player is not paying attention, they might not even notice it.
That is, if he knows about it. I'm guessing most players don't.

I've only witnessed it in units division sized and larger doing recombination and breakdown routines.


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RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/10/2005 11:59:33 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

I've only witnessed it in units division sized and larger doing recombination and breakdown routines.


Thats because it only happens with units that split into 3 parts.

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RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker - 5/11/2005 12:05:37 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		My concern is that most players don't watch the LCU resolution phase.
That's going to be the only time an opposing player is going to notice it.

That is, if they know what they're looking at.

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