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Air/Naval operations + Red Lightning

 
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Air/Naval operations + Red Lightning - 12/1/2005 11:38:06 PM   
konk

 

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Joined: 10/21/2003
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A hopeful question, and a thought-

Has anyone heard of any chance of Red Lightning becoming "Matrix-ized"?

If not, perhaps the Red Lightning Air and Naval Combat engines could be imported, or otherwise used in some fashion in TOAW.

Air operations were great fun as you could assign individual squadrons to various types of missions.

The Naval side was abstracted, but also added some tactical decisions with strategic effects. Special Forces and/or divisons could be committed to off-board battle locations, such as the Faroes or Iceland.

If battles were "won" at either the Faroes or Iceland, there would be an effect on winning the Naval battle in the Atlantic.

If the Naval battle was "Won" by either side, reinforcements a side could expect would be impacted.
Ie. if the Soviets won the war in the Atlantic, then the flow of reinforcements in Central Europe would be drastically curtailed.

Thanks for any feedback, thoughts, rememberances of this fine old game :)
Post #: 1
RE: Air/Naval operations + Red Lightning - 12/2/2005 12:42:06 PM   
von_Schmidt

 

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TOAW is actually the descendant of Norm Koger's operational level series which started with Red Lightning (Conflict Middle East and Conflict Korea being the other ones).

I remember those well; they - and Grigby's Second front - got me into computer wargaming.
Shame that in RedL the Pact was so much stronger than NATO and would win by default - esp if the Red airmobile forces were dropped on the capitulation hexes and attacks focused on selected nations to force a withdrawal of those from the conflict. NATO strenghts (ie effects of Air power, quality and better supply) were underrepresented IMHO.

I agree with your statement re naval/air; the resolution of naval/air combat and the resulting effects on the ground situation (which is the core of the Conflict/ TOAW series) seems to work better in an abstract manner compared to placing the actual units on the map and trying to fit them in the game format.

However, since the TOAW framework has been set, that part is not likely to change. One alternative would be to remove the air and naval units from the gamemap and use the event engine to simulate those aspects. Although that might be too cumbersome.

I remember there being a Red Lightning scenario for TOAW 1 (IRRC created by the now-famous Erik Rutins?), which emulated the original game quite well. You might want to look around for that one.

Regards,

- von Schmidt


(in reply to konk)
Post #: 2
RE: Air/Naval operations + Red Lightning - 12/2/2005 2:44:10 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: von_Schmidt

Shame that in RedL the Pact was so much stronger than NATO and would win by default - esp if the Red airmobile forces were dropped on the capitulation hexes and attacks focused on selected nations to force a withdrawal of those from the conflict. NATO strenghts (ie effects of Air power, quality and better supply) were underrepresented IMHO.


I'm not familiar with the game you're discussing, but people just tend to assume that NATO would have won a conventional war. As I understand it, at some point in the Cold War NATO came up with a set of force goals, deciding that to prevent immediate Russian victory they would need a force of 90 divisions. Realising that this was unachievable in peacetime, they decided not to try.

I suspect the Russians would probably have won a conventional war- but since there wouldn't have been a conventional war, it doesn't really matter. Nuclear weapons are a great leveller.

...there again, the Russians have a tendency to suffer a series of humiliating defeats at the start of all their wars.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 12/2/2005 3:13:13 PM >


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to von_Schmidt)
Post #: 3
RE: Air/Naval operations + Red Lightning - 12/2/2005 5:29:13 PM   
JMS2


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You have a much better and improved Red Lightning like scenario for ACOW 1.04

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?Id=97

OPERATION KRASNIY GROM

(OPERATION RED THUNDER)

A Tribute to Norm Koger's "Red Lightning"

This is a full re-Design ACOW 300 of Erik Rutins "Red Thunder '88" scenario.

Map Scale: 25 km/Hex
Time Scale: 12 hours/Turn
Unit Scale: Divisions - Compagnies
Length: 128 Turns
Unit Icons:

NATO - 1014 units

Yellow on D.Green - Belgium
White on Brown - Canada
D.Blue on D.Green - Denmark
White on L.Blue - France
L.Blue on D.Green - Germany
Red on D.Green - Italy
L.Green on D.Green - Luxembourg
Blue on D.Green - Netherlands
L.Grey on Brown - UK
White on L.Green - US

Blue on Green - NATO
White on Grey - Austria
Black on Crimson - Czechoslavia
Gold on Crimson - Hungary
Red on Crimson - Poland

WARSAW PACT - 1374 units

Black on Dark Red - Czechoslavia
Yellow on Dark Red - East Germany
Gold on Dark Red - Hungary
Red on Dark Red - Poland
Grey on Dark Red - Soviet Union

---
I suggest that the Player choose the NATO side. This because the PO have some limitations.
---
Introduction
---

1989: Two of the most fearsome armies in history face each other across a divided Germany. The slightest spark here can cause a conflagration. This time, the line is crossed and now there is no going back. NATO and the Warsaw Pact are locked together in a life and death struggle. Only one side can emerge the victor, the other will be annihilated. Conflicting strategies, ideologies and technologies make for a diverse and unpredictable panorama.

Make your choice and assume control over the destiny of the world.

=====
Features and Events


Red Lightning had specific features such as Reforger sites that could be overrun, political morale tracking that could result in the disintegration of NATO and/or the Warsaw Pact, and Special Forces operations in theater and out of theater. The battle for the Atlantic and the invasion of Norway and Iceland were both modeled. Unfortunately, some of these specialized functions are impossible to create in TOAW. Those that I could figure out how to do, I did. The list is as follows:

- The units/Formations have the designation names/abbrevs in the language of there home country.

- Reforger Sites (POMCUS) -
Marked by a * on the map, these can be overrun, causing the US units scheduled to receive their pre-positioned equipment from that site to otherwise arrive they without equipmentl. These sites must be protected by NATO as they represent the most significant source of reinforcements the western alliance can expect. They are defended by a Defence uint. The Warsaw Pact must attempt (most likely through airborne and amphibious operations) to secure and destroy the equipment on these sites before it gets into the hands of trained troops. Warsaw Pact player please note: You must occupy a Reforger site for an entire turn (your part and NATO's) in order for the equipment to be destroyed.

- Iceland, Norway and the Atlantic -
These battles begin at the start of the scenario and will most likely be concluded at some point before it ends. Iceland and Norway are toss-ups in terms of victory chance for each side. The battle for the Atlantic is skewed in favor of NATO, but if the Warsaw Pact does not lose in the first 40 turns or so, their chances improve dramatically (they must be doing something right to survive so long!). Winning each of these garners victory points and may affect supply and replacements for the loser. A Norway victory may result in additional reserves for the victor being released to the Central European theater from Norway.

- Capitals and Political Morale -
Capitals are marked on the map in CAPITAL letters. Occupation of a capital is a serious blow to the country to which it belongs. As the scenario progresses, countries will become vulnerable to low morale. As time goes on, all countries become vulnerable, though to widely varying degrees. If a country is vulnerable, shortly after occupation of its capital a message will appear in the news stating "ALERT: Country X's resolve wavers...". The result may be a decision to stay with the fight, or to make a separate peace (or rebellion in the case of Warsaw Pact members). Once the decision is made, the event will not occur again. A separate peace or rebellion decision means victory points for the other side, a loss of supply and replacements and a loss of use of the armies of that country. Be warned, protect your capitals, particularly after turns 20-30 when governments will begin to grow weary of the conflict.

- Austria -
As in Red Lightning, Austria starts the war Neutral.
Here this is represented by an exclusion zone. If the Warsaw Pact player wishes to invade Austria, he must click on the "Invade Austria Next Turn" Theater Option. On the next turn, the exclusion zone will drop and NATO will gain control over the Austrian units. Soviet forces will now be able to move through and attack Austria. Unlike Red Lightning, an invasion of Austria may trigger the entry of Italian reinforcements from the south map edge. And the Soviet receives also heavy reinforcements (About 6 Armies and 4 Air-Armies) The NATO receives 50 VPs.

- Engineers -
Red Lightning had no engineers, but since TOAW allows you to blow bridges and damage railroads, their inclusion here was necessary.

- Nuclear and Chemical Weapons -
Red Lightning had Chemical Weapons but no provision for nuclear release (and in its setting of 1989, there's an excellent argument for ending the game once it goes nuclear). In this new setting, however, I felt that TOAW's ability to model nuclear weapons should be explored. There is a strong probability that you will see Chemical and Nuclear weapons during this scenario. NATO will not release these weapons unless the Pact initiates their use or possibly if NATO is losing badly. Nuclear release will significantly decrease supply for both sides.

- Off-Map Airfields -
These should be considered off-limits for airborne attacks, but air strikes to destroy enemy planes are perfectly 'legal'.

- Reinforcements.
Around the Turns 85-95 receives the NATO many reinforcements, These are US National Guards Divisions, UK Territorial Army Brigades, and differen NATO Countries raise new units from Volunteers.

- NATO Counter-Offensive
Around turn 95 is there a change that the NATO launch a Counter-Offensive.

- Rebellion in Warsaw Countries
There is a change that the NATO raise in some Warsaw Countries local units from Rebels/POW etc, after they occupied some territory

- Victory Points
From turn 28 receives the NATO for every 14 turns
Victory points with a increased value for standing out
the Warsaw Pact offensive.

- Replacement Piority.
The Soviets has Low and NSWP has Normal Replacement Piorities because the Soviet Doctrine let a Division for about 3 days fight(40% strength) , and replaced with a new Division. The NATO countries has a Replacement Piority of High or Normal

My thanks for the following persons.

Bengt Larsson, Pawe, Vándór Károly and Andy johnson. With there help and advice.

Erik Rutins for the orginal scenario.

Norm Koger for the game.

And all others that has provided with advice.

Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
lej.vanderpluym@home.nl
The Crazy Dutch

_____________________________


(in reply to konk)
Post #: 4
RE: Air/Naval operations + Red Lightning - 12/2/2005 6:16:04 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JMS2

Map Scale: 25 km/Hex
Time Scale: 12 hours/Turn


Woah... this has got to produce some wierd results. At this scale combination, infantry should have a move of one.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to JMS2)
Post #: 5
RE: Air/Naval operations + Red Lightning - 12/2/2005 6:41:53 PM   
konk

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 10/21/2003
Status: offline
Thanks for the prompt and informative responses.
I knew I could count on matrix-folk to help out

I really did enjoy these games.

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but can someone please tell me what ACOW stands for? ACOW 300? Is that a game similiar to TOAW? Can it be downloaded or otherwise purchased?

Konk

< Message edited by konk -- 12/2/2005 7:00:33 PM >

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 6
RE: Air/Naval operations + Red Lightning - 12/2/2005 8:41:21 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: konk
Pardon my lack of knowledge, but can someone please tell me what ACOW stands for? ACOW 300? Is that a game similiar to TOAW? Can it be downloaded or otherwise purchased?


ACOW = A Century of Warfare, which is the subtitle of the last release of TOAW.

ACOW 300 refers to the Opart 300 CW .exe, which is one of two version of the game executable provided with TOAW.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to konk)
Post #: 7
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