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News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process?

 
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News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/6/2005 10:40:01 AM   
Ralegh


Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		Disappointed with the slow pace of development, I investigated a little, and decided we had two problems in this process at the moment:
a) not enough active testers and
b) the developer's time was taken up babysitting what testers we had, rather than moving seriously forward.
I took these issues to Marshall and Matrix, and they agreed that my ideas were worth a go - especially since I was "putting up" both a plan and my time, not just crying in my beer.

To solve (a) a large group of people have recently been invited to join the testing team - some are experienced testers from COG, and others are long-time contributors to these EIA boards. I am delighted to say that most of the people Matrix have invited have accepted the invitation. This should help us find the issues faster, as well as (hopefully make the game a bit more intuitive to play. We will see how this goes: I wanted to make an open invitation as well, but Matrix convinced me to try the smaller group first - especially since a lot of the people came from these boards.

To help with (b) I have volunteered to babysit the testers [and repro the bugs before they go through to Marshall]. And we are actively trying to keep Marshall AWAY from these boards so he can concentrate on writing code. (Please don't think he doesn't care - he will still lurk, and keenly monitors the board). I tried to recruit some help with these tasks, but without any luck so far. Hope I don't turn into the bottleneck!

I will try to contribute a bit more to these boards, both to help ya'll know what to expect, but mainly to get your views on any decisions that need to be made.

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh
Post #: 1
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/6/2005 6:35:22 PM   
ktotwf

 

Posts: 182
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		Good. Finally some good news. Progress is being made and I, for one, couldn't be happier.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 2
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/6/2005 6:52:44 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Good news, indeed, and thanks to you, Steve, for taking the initiative.

Just please, please, PLEASE make sure that the integrity of the design is preserved and respected. There has to be a central set of goals unchanged by those clamoring for this feature, that modification, "new directions" and so on. Those responsible for managing the project need to decide on what this game is to be, and then make it that. Insist that those helping on the project do not, instead, destroy it through "Hey, listen to my gee-whiz new idea" or "I know what YOU think, but this is what I think, and since I think it, everybody else ought to think that way, too."

I don't want another WitP.



_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 3
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/6/2005 10:41:02 PM   
Windfire


Posts: 135
Joined: 10/24/2003
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline 		Glad to hear things are being modified to help the process along. Looking forward to the final product.

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 4
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/7/2005 4:26:09 PM   
jamo262


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/21/2003
From: Perth Australia
Status: offline 		Just if I may offer a suggestion.

People with active creative minds will always think of new possibilities, directions inovations etc for game mechanics.

For our purposes this (at this stage of developement) maybe counter productive if a flood of "whatif's?" and "how abouts?" impinge on the final process of checking for bugs and playability.

However as always there would be some gold amongst the dross and it goes against human nature to keep ones mouth shut when a bright idea has dawned.

To ameliorate this we could create a " to be considered for version 2 in the future" type basket or sub forum where people can put their 2cents worth on the record whilst not confusing the task at hand-to get the game to a high degree of playabilty with what has already been created.

Well I hope that makes some sort of sense maybe its just me but I can always think of alternatives and rule "improvements" and like people to consider and comment on them.

(in reply to Windfire)
Post #: 5
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/8/2005 3:37:14 AM   
Ralegh


Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		During testing, it is standard to gather information about other ideas.
We categorise incoming stuff into "bugs", "feature requests", and "unknown" - some of the unknown are commentary that turn into feature requests, or sometimes into bugs. The difference between bugs and feature requests is one of INTENTION. The difference between these and the 'unknown' category is more about clarity.

Bugs - by definition - have a test case: probably a saved game and a few steps to reproduce the problem. FRs and UNKs sometimes have this too. But without it, something aint a BUG.

It is certainly true that we need to prevent the developer spending all his time trying to figure out UNKs, and musing over the relative value of FRs (or just including every FR anyone puts forward).

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh

(in reply to jamo262)
Post #: 6
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/8/2005 9:47:10 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline 		Just do it! ANd dont give up! And give us a rough estimate (if possible).

_____________________________


Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 7
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/9/2005 10:59:59 AM   
McGuire

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline 		I completely agree with Ursa MAior!

Stick to it! If you think you'll get this game done faster or better with more betas - get them! I bet anyone in this forum would be happy to be one of them!
If you think the betas are slowing you down or are doing more bad than good - well: DUMP 'EM!

And an estimate would really be great!
(By the way: My birthday is in may. How about a birthday present?)



_____________________________

There are only 10 types of people in the world!
Those who can read binary - and those who don't!

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 8
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/9/2005 8:00:02 PM   
1LTRambo


Posts: 313
Joined: 8/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: McGuire

I completely agree with Ursa MAior!

Stick to it! And an estimate would really be great!
(By the way: My birthday is in may. How about a birthday present?)



I third that notion.

By the way, If its not available by May for McGuire's Birthday, mine is in June.

(in reply to McGuire)
Post #: 9
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/11/2005 11:28:47 AM   
Camile Desmoulins


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		I thank you extraordinarily your contribution and I wanted to know some things:

- the degree of progress of the game,
- the finishing forecasts (in dates)
- In what you are working concretely now

I encourage you to continue without hurries but without pauses

Camille

_____________________________

"Scis vincere, nescis uti victoria" (Maharbal)

(in reply to Ralegh)
Post #: 10
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/11/2005 5:17:25 PM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		Hmm... everyone wants dates, that's the problem. Technicaly cIA could go gold tommorow, but then it wouldn't be quite polished would it... There are some issues still to be cleaned up, and I'm sure MG doesn't want to get a paradox reputation. I'll say this, the longer the wait, the better it will be.



_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves…

(in reply to Camile Desmoulins)
Post #: 11
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/11/2005 9:26:17 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline 		Well a rough estimate would be enough for me, and I promise I won't complain if it is not held. Something like this : if things dont change drastically we should be ready by let's say May 2006 (when my birthday happens to be too).

There is one thing I can't take, it is waiting for an undefined period of time. If anyone says it will be ready in one year it is also ok by me, but I'd like to know at least a rough estimate. Being a lame user I am not really interested in details, only when it will be released.

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 12/11/2005 9:33:41 PM >

_____________________________


Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 12
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/12/2005 3:59:19 AM   
1LTRambo


Posts: 313
Joined: 8/31/2004
Status: offline 		Unfortunately I have to disagree. I remember when the date was floating around for the store release. It was originally November 2003, then it was pushed back to February 2004. I was bugging the sales people every weekend between November and February about the game and only further frustrated myself. In addition I was also unhappy with the developers, even though I knew nothing about them.

It would be bad for MG to issue dates, especially with the likelyhood that they can not meet those deadlines. I'm sure you would be very upset if they said the game would be ready "sometime around March" only to find its May and the game still has not been released.

IMHO it is better this way.

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 13
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/12/2005 5:22:18 AM   
Windfire


Posts: 135
Joined: 10/24/2003
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline 		I would rather not have dates until they know they are getting ready to go gold. I find it frustrating to have a date and then have them overrun it because it needs to continue in development. Along the same lines, I am willing to wait until the product is done and polished. I would rather have a good product than one that needs multiple patches and frustrates the players because of the bugs or the ease of overruning any AI countries.

(in reply to 1LTRambo)
Post #: 14
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/12/2005 4:21:49 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

..........................................

I'll say this, the longer the wait, the better it will be.




You will probably say the same thing about the first patch too.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 15
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/12/2005 7:47:07 PM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		I am hoping a patch won't be needed. As for expansion pack, that is another story...


_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves…

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 16
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/13/2005 12:13:59 AM   
1LTRambo


Posts: 313
Joined: 8/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I am hoping a patch won't be needed. As for expansion pack, that is another story...



Quite right Pippin, this game needs to be quality from the get go or a lot of players will be very upset.

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 17
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/13/2005 4:22:30 AM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		Aye, and MG is most likely in a no win situation here. People who have never played EiA before will probably be overwhelmed by the complexity. Meanwhile those who have played it before, will most likely never be satisfied. So how the reviews will turn out, is a good question.

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves…

(in reply to 1LTRambo)
Post #: 18
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/14/2005 2:29:05 AM   
Windfire


Posts: 135
Joined: 10/24/2003
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I am hoping a patch won't be needed. As for expansion pack, that is another story...



Definately hoping there is an expansion pack. Looking forward to being able to play a grand campaign starting in 1792 in the future.

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 19
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/14/2005 9:08:25 AM   
Camile Desmoulins


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		I have no problem to wait as necessary, but I know that the problem is the betatester phase, less peoople working than it's necessary. Perhaps Matrix would search more betatesters, or select him better. I want accept wait for a better game (I have been three years making it, and sincerely grateful to Matrix and Marshall), not for that there is few betatesters

Camille

_____________________________

"Scis vincere, nescis uti victoria" (Maharbal)

(in reply to Pippin)
Post #: 20
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/14/2005 7:06:36 PM   
1LTRambo


Posts: 313
Joined: 8/31/2004
Status: offline 		I have not seen a posting that lists the total number of Beta-testers, so I don't think we can make any judgements on whether or not there is a sufficient or insufficient number of testers.
Are we willing to wait? Well, we have no choice. Until the game is considered ready by the testers and the development team, then we will not see the game. It's as simple as that.
The only thing that we can do is hope that MG will ensure the game is as nearly perfect as possible at release time. However, Pippin is absolutely correct in stating

"People who have never played EiA before will probably be overwhelmed by the complexity. Meanwhile those who have played it before, will most likely never be satisfied. So how the reviews will turn out, is a good question."

So all we can do is give our support and wait for tid-bits to fall from the gaming table

(in reply to Camile Desmoulins)
Post #: 21
RE: News from the Beta - Improved Testing Process? - 12/18/2005 10:47:30 AM   
Camile Desmoulins


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		The number of initial betatesters can it was good, but not all they continue, there are quite a lot of abandonments. I agree with you it is that it is necessary to wait the best possible game with patience (I 'm participating in this forum three years ago, and have never been urgent to finish the game ahead, neither I make it now) and if it is necessary to look for new betatesters that is made, it will be easy to find them

Camille

_____________________________

"Scis vincere, nescis uti victoria" (Maharbal)

(in reply to 1LTRambo)
Post #: 22
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