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WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 5:00:51 PM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I have enough $ to purchase 1 game. I am currently deciding between WitP and WPO. I am somewhat concerned about the bugs I read about with WitP and I am not sure how truly bad they are. I do find it interesting that WPO is using the same engine but I do not find many of the bugs discussed in their forums (makes me wonder if some of the issue is scale when it comes to the arrays for leaders).

Both historical periods are of interest to me though I am drawn a bit more to WitP.

So, if you folks had enough for one....which would it be and a short why....
Post #: 1
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 5:13:06 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline
quote:

So, if you folks had enough for one....which would it be and a short why....


WPO is less buggy, because there is NO chance for:

"uber" CAP
"uber" bombers
"land deathstar"
"Sea deathstar"

But I personally think that WPO is also LESS FUN

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Post #: 2
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 5:23:34 PM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

quote:

So, if you folks had enough for one....which would it be and a short why....


WPO is less buggy, because there is NO chance for:

"uber" CAP
"uber" bombers
"land deathstar"
"Sea deathstar"

But I personally think that WPO is also LESS FUN


Hmm, I read about the uber CAP and bombers...missed the other ones though.

I had the same thought about WPO being less fun when I first read the game descriptions but when I read the AAR's in the forums it seems not to be the case....

I am not the best wargamer (not too bad but definitely not the best) so bugs hurting me would make my uphill battles worse How frequently do these occur?

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
Post #: 3
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 5:28:55 PM   
ltfightr


Posts: 537
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Little Rock AR
Status: offline 		WITP is not that buggy its more that the game mechanics let you so things that are Ahistoric. There are some loopholes that can and are exploited. True there are a few out and out bugs (leaders) but most are design decisions that some people dislike or game mechanics that people think should work diffrently. (Not taking sides just pointing that most of the complaints are not bugs per say)

"uber" CAP
"uber" bombers
"land deathstar"
"Sea deathstar

None of the above to me are bugs more design decisions or play styles that annoy people.
A bug is more like the leader bug or CTD or some other fuction that plain does not work not a part of the program that people think should work diffrently.

So long and short answer is Are you a Carrier and Naval air fan or are you a BB fan. WITP Airpower is where its at in WPO BB's rule the waves

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Post #: 4
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 5:33:25 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline
quote:

am not the best wargamer (not too bad but definitely not the best) so bugs hurting me would make my uphill battles worse How frequently do these occur?


They are purely "Player difined" bugs and can be negated pretty easy by some simple house rules. WPO concentrates mostly on pure "naval gun battles", and this system works pretty well under the overall WITP engine. WITP has the abillity to let players MASSIVLY overstack units and planes in hexes, thus creating "uber" type bugs. The program has difficulty cooping with these numbers and results can be a bit in the extreme when "uber" tactics are used.

But do not worry, a few simple stacking houserules will let you negate most of these "problems".




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Post #: 5
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 5:38:56 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Another very positive aspect of WPO is the much faster turnaround time. A WitP turn can take FOREVER because of the air phases, which WPO is all but devoid of. There are airplanes in WPO, of course, but nowhere near as many.

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Post #: 6
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 5:42:46 PM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Thanks to both of you. I appreciate the time and explanations. I especially liked this line which seemed to sum everything up so well:

quote:

So long and short answer is Are you a Carrier and Naval air fan or are you a BB fan. WITP Airpower is where its at in WPO BB's rule the waves


Thanks to both for explaining the difference on the "bugs". I am mostly going to be playing vs the AI until I gain some relative competence in the game's rules and mechanics.

I am at work now.... will figure this out today, buy one tonight and get started.... I do so like the big guns of BB's....

TERMINUS: Ineteresting point on the phases and length of turns. How long can a WitP turn take to process?

< Message edited by Terl -- 12/19/2005 5:47:54 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 5:49:24 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I've seen it take up to 10 minutes, depending (of course) on how much action's taking place.

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Post #: 8
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 6:18:22 PM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I've seen it take up to 10 minutes, depending (of course) on how much action's taking place.


That's not so bad.....

I guess part of what I am wondering about is how I will fare. IRL I was an infantry officer (via OCS...started as regular ol' rifleman ) so all my naval experience is from reading....

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 9
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 6:27:10 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Oh no, it IS so bad, when all you can do is watch and click your way through it. In comparison, an average (whatever that is) WPO turn can take 3-5 minutes.

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Post #: 10
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 6:44:58 PM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Well then, it does sound a bit tedious. Is the "clicking through" the results of the phase? Or can the turn process run through on its own whilst I get a coffee, let's say? I can understand the length of time as the simulation seems to be quite large especially compared to WPO.

I shall check some more....

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 11
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 6:50:07 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline
quote:

Well then, it does sound a bit tedious. Is the "clicking through" the results of the phase? Or can the turn process run through on its own whilst I get a coffee, let's say?



NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,...

If you skip the combat reports (possible) you will MISS so much information that is necesary in this game. Against the AI it will not matter much, but against a human opponent it will cost you your head

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In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

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Post #: 12
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 6:54:41 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		You don't have to click your way through a turn in WitP. As both WitP and WPO are based on the same engine, I'll assume this also applies to WPO. The player has the option of running with combat animations ON or OFF. Same is true with combat summaries. If they are ON, then the player has to click END at the conclusion of each. Which, btw, if I couldn't turn OFF, I wouldn't be playing. Far too tedious for me.

I have them set to OFF. Let the turn run on it;s own to completion (combat replay portion), while I'm doing something else (that way the wife thinks I'm hard at work ).
At the completion of the combat replay, I call up the entire listing of combat summaries which I can scroll through. When done, I close. There is also a VERY nice player created utility (Bodhi's Utility) that allows you to track what happened last turn in a much more human friendly manner (offline though). typical turn will run for 10-15 minutes, but with it unattended, I really don't care.

(in reply to Terl)
Post #: 13
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 7:03:10 PM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

quote:

Well then, it does sound a bit tedious. Is the "clicking through" the results of the phase? Or can the turn process run through on its own whilst I get a coffee, let's say?



NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,NO, NO,...

If you skip the combat reports (possible) you will MISS so much information that is necesary in this game. Against the AI it will not matter much, but against a human opponent it will cost you your head


Ah! This is as I thought. I like reading the combat results...I do with all my games. I should have asked for more clarification.

Scout1: That indeed sounds like a good plan. I got lucky and managed to find a game for my wife that she really enjoys so I get extra time as she too is involved on her own pc.... With some searching I am up to 3 that she enjoys.....

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
Post #: 14
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 10:03:13 PM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Okay, I have done a good deal of scouting these forums (whilst at work :) ) and have found many rather nasty remarks about the bugs in this game. As a person who wasted much money on MOO3 I am hesitant to do the same again.

Are these things I read of true bugs or folks unhappy with game design? I realize the leader on has got to be a bug. Admiral Halsey turns up missing a bit too often I'd say....

I realize every game has its issues...I just don't want game stoppers or issues like MOO3.

(in reply to Terl)
Post #: 15
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 10:14:21 PM   
ltfightr


Posts: 537
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Little Rock AR
Status: offline 		The game itself in v1.60 which is the "commercial version" not the 1.7xx beta version is stable and runs well. The Leader bug is the only true bug I have seen and then only very rarley. Most everything else I have seen talked about in the commerical version is a player use or a I wish they had made "x" work this way not "y" way. I am included in this list there are several items I wish for also (like stacking and unloading) but they do work.

Look at the bug reports you will see:

I running v 1.7xx using map mod and CHS mod ver (not nocking these or those who wish to use them but it does add another layer)

But if you are running the stock stuff at the current commercial patch the game runs well.



< Message edited by ltfightr -- 12/19/2005 10:18:17 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 10:15:08 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I'm biased as a beta tester for WPO, but here goes...

WPO is less plagued by heavy bugs than WitP, to a certain extent because there are fewer features in WPO for bugs to attack, i.e. fewer aircraft carriers, aircraft, etc.

I'd hesitate to say that either game has any showstopping problems, but if you ask me to weigh up which of the two is less buggy, I'll definitely say WPO.

(BTW, I too am one of the poor saps who wasted money on MOO3. )

< Message edited by Terminus -- 12/19/2005 10:16:56 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 10:20:47 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		What are the problems with MOO3?

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 18
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 10:22:57 PM   
ltfightr


Posts: 537
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Little Rock AR
Status: offline 		Lest I sound Anti WPO I am getting it for christmas.

WITP is also a good solid game. Could it be better? YES.

Have I gotten my money's worth YES

I have bought way too many games that spent less than 3 hours on my HD UV and WITP have stayed.

I invite all who think that WITP is crap to create the perfect game and sell it.



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Post #: 19
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/19/2005 10:32:41 PM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terl

Okay, I have done a good deal of scouting these forums (whilst at work :) ) and have found many rather nasty remarks about the bugs in this game. As a person who wasted much money on MOO3 I am hesitant to do the same again.

Are these things I read of true bugs or folks unhappy with game design? I realize the leader on has got to be a bug. Admiral Halsey turns up missing a bit too often I'd say....

I realize every game has its issues...I just don't want game stoppers or issues like MOO3.


Terl, as one who has been quite vocal lately on the subject of "testing" to have caught the bugs I can only think of these bugs: 

1. Pilot replacement bug (which, for me and some others WAS a game stopper) but was supposidly fixed
2. Teleporting unit bug ... haven't had it happen to me but I think it's still a bug and could or could not be a game stopper
    depending on the people playing I suppose
3. Leader bug which, while not exactly a game stopper, is very frustrating and CAN definitely affect outcomes of battles
4. Leader names disappearing on leader selection screens.  I had thought it made those unnamed leader unselectable but
    someone (sorry but I forget right now) said you could select them by clicking on the left part of where the name should
    be and they were correct so it is just an "irritant" now
5. Crashes to desk top when saving games.  I had it happen a lot until I started firmly clicking my mouse pointer over
    the buttons which seems to keep it from crashing.  Guess the secret here is using a Tim Allen "Tool Time" manly click.
6.  Some units "disappear" for no reason.  I had an aviation unit do that to me at Noumea.  Fortunately it still existed as
     far as the base was concerned but I could just never move it again.  The 90 AV points are still there over 2 game
     years after moving forward from Noumea.
The other items such as "uber cap", "stacking" etc are play styles and not really bugs.

If you like WWII history (especially Pacific History) or naval aviation warfare I'd say go with WITP but just expect to get bit by one of the above bugs during a grand campaign game once or more times.

< Message edited by dereck -- 12/19/2005 10:34:56 PM >

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Post #: 20
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 12:18:52 AM   
testarossa


Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terl
Are these things I read of true bugs or folks unhappy with game design? I realize the leader on has got to be a bug. Admiral Halsey turns up missing a bit too often I'd say..


Well, WitP is the best game I ever bought. i have (duh!) Civ4 which i played 2 times since, and i'm playing WitP since i bought it in October 04. PBEM rates for me as 10 times more interesting than AI-games, of course if you will be able to find an opponent able to do 3-4 turns per day (and the one who is not going to quit on you because you spanked him too hard). I have PBEM started in April 05 and now we are in Dec 43 game time.

Most "nasty" comments on this board (me including) are from frustration mainly, that this game is not what we think it could've been. but I remember patch history and with every fix this puppy is getting better and better. The only problem still present (for me personally) (after 1.79)(crossing fingers) is over stacking with resulting bizarre combat results, and uber-ASW naval search, which renders subs practically unusable.

But as many mentioned before there were some design decisions made 3-4 years ago during UV days that were not tested sufficiently on grand scale. Now it is almost impossible to fix it without rewriting big chunks of the code. Ron was waging a hopeless campaign to fix ASW vs sub routine and finally it was done. Now we are asking to fix Nav search and overstacking and may be our pleas will be heard after all.


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Post #: 21
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 1:01:28 AM   
Roger Neilson

 

Posts: 899
Joined: 10/27/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		I like both. I'm totally useless at WPO (see my AAR for proof)but rattled through over 30 moves in a few weeks. I therefore have the ability with it to learn faster, and to see my mistakes much more rapidly. I hope therefore I will become better at it - I also have to keep saying to myself 'this isn't WITP' play it differently.

On the other hand WITP is a monster and an addiction. I am currently in four games, two of which are team ones. I am in Feb 1943 in my longest running one and every move am discovering things that might be useful to me in about a year's time when I am in Feb 1943 in another of the WITP games!!!!!!

I think I might just edge for WPO first if i was very new to these type of games as its less frightening in its immensity!


Luckily I don't have to choose.

ROger

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Post #: 22
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 1:12:41 AM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Thank you all very, very much. I appreciate the time and your patience. I am downloading War in the Pacific right now. I read far too many "never left my hard drive" and similar comments. I liked what Roger said about the "addiction". I need a game like this. I liked the comments about playing Civ4 a couple times. I have found all but Civ2 to be a letdown. I still play 2 when I want to play a Civ game.

Give me a bit of time to get used to this and then some or all could give me quite the thrashing later

I will install and start reading my manuals.... I can hardly wait.

(in reply to Roger Neilson)
Post #: 23
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 1:23:23 AM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Best of luck Terl.

We're all here to listen/offer sdvice etc.

Steven

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Post #: 24
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 1:41:11 AM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Best of luck Terl.

We're all here to listen/offer sdvice etc.

Steven


Thanks. All downloaded and setup, patched and ready to go. Read a bit of the tutorial and fire it up

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 25
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 1:46:16 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Welcome aboard. Oh, and wave bye-bye to every last bit of free time.

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Post #: 26
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 1:47:41 AM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline
quote:

Thanks. All downloaded and setup, patched and ready to go. Read a bit of the tutorial and fire it up


Bey bey sociall life........

Reading this forum and playing PBEMS have gotten me addicted to this game.....

Hai, My name is William and I am a WITP addict.....
" HELLO WILLIAM..........."

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In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

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Post #: 27
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 3:43:12 AM   
von Beanie


Posts: 295
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Oak Hills, S. California
Status: offline 		At this point, WITP is a much better designed game and much more interesting to play. WPO has some potential to be a better game, but this will take some time. A lot has to do with major differences in operational intelligence. If you like operating in an intelligence-rich environment, choose WITP. If you like operating with a major lack of intelligence, WPO is your game.

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
Post #: 28
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 4:05:50 AM   
kfmiller41


Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline 		I am not a Beta Tester or anything other than a player but I bought WIPT when it was released, have had it on both of my computers since then and have played at least one turn every day since then. I am not a great player by any means but it is FUN. despite some problems (which seem to upset other alot more than me) it is such a great way for an old style wargamer like me to enjoy fighting one of the toughest conflicts in World War 2 that I have read dozens of books about. That in a nutshell makes it worth much more than most other games I have bought in the last 2 years.

Oh and I bought WPO too

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Post #: 29
RE: WitP vs WPO - 12/20/2005 4:23:39 AM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I have been busy reading the tutorial and following along. This is amazing; the detail, the depth, all leading to total immersion--yikes! I am really looking forward to learning this game. I have had my eye on it for about a year now--wasted earlier funds on games already sold on e-bay Should have followed my "gut reaction" earlier I s'pose...Back to my learning....

(in reply to kfmiller41)
Post #: 30
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