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RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code

 
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RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/18/2005 11:25:47 PM   
bilbow


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Concord NH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

quote:



Original Dereck

It SHOULD have been better. We're talking about BASIC bugs which would have been caught with any semblance of thorough testing before the game was released into the general population. You don't spend money for a brand new sports car and have the engine and wheels fall off while driving down the road and just say "oh well".




Bla Bla bla......the developers are utter boobs who could have been out-programed by any first year computer science major. Sure there was not even a SEMBLANCE of testing.

But I have news for you. The wheels havn't fallen of this sportscar. Hundreds/thousands are driving it every day despite any flaws that exist. This really has to rank as the best software purchase I have every made and I'm sure many agree.

I'm sure someday some team of programers will produce a Pacific War game that puts this to shame. Hell, if all you need is a first year programer and a semblance of testing how hard can it be.

Until then I'll play WITP and then their civil war game and then the new war in Russia.

Thats right I"M GOING TO REWARD THEM them for producing games with their pathetic 7th grade programming skills.



Simply put, me too. Ding! I hear another turn arriving in the mailbox. Gotta go!


_____________________________

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile- hoping it will eat him last
- Winston Churchill

(in reply to moses)
Post #: 61
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 12:16:24 AM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline
quote:

The fact that the program was obviously never tested crippled them.


quote:

There's no excuses for not testing simple programming code at all and I'll never change my mind on that.


quote:

I on the other hand expected to have software that worked instead of software that ended up with major bugs in it that could have been taken care of by simple program testing


quote:

I merely stated that for a project of this size it seems obvious they simply did not have enough programmers working on it.


quote:

These are simple programming bugs which shouldn't have ever reached this stage if enough testing had been done.



All your quotes. The use of the words "simple" and "obvious" in each quote is telling and betray the basic flaw in your argument.

IF they did such a poor job then how to explain the accomplishment and the following on this board of so many playing customers. In any event this type of critism is hardly constructive.

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 62
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 12:17:00 AM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

The fact of the matter is when you buy something (regardless of price) you expect to have a reasonable expectation that the BASICS of what you buy will work. This isn't always the case with this game - an array filling up causing a pilot replacement problem; a leader problem which consistantly removes and/or replaces officers at will; a "new" leader bug which causes the NAMES to disappear so you have a leader selection screen with half the leaders unable to be even selected? These are simple programming bugs which shouldn't have ever reached this stage if enough testing had been done.


Perhaps you missed my point about proportion. This is a GAME, and it can't be compared on equal terms with NASA space program. Yes, all products should work as specified, but there are products where errors are more tolerable then in others. I'd rather have this IMPERFECT game now and for $100, then to wait for it to be perfect in a couple of years and to have to pay $1000 for it.

BTW, those nameles leaders can be selected, its just a bit tricky to click on them (try clickin on left edge where the name should be). But my suggestion would be not to bother with leaders at all. Just pretend that that option is not even available and let the game handle it. IMO, the only leader that realy metters (and one which you cannot aford to lose) is YOU.


(in reply to dereck)
Post #: 63
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 2:11:07 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		Dino,

Leaders have a substantial effect on combat resolution. I consider myself competent and one of the reasons I do pretty well in my games is leader selection. Not bothering with leaders at all is an option, but if your playing me, Mogami, PzB or any one of a number of other players we will shred you if you ignore leaders.

The leader bug causes the combat value of your units to randomly drop as much as 50% without providing you any warning that this has occurred. If the leader that matters wants to win, he better take advantage of the leader selection process in the game.

Ironically I think this game does compare with a NASA product, their are buggy too.

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 64
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 2:30:18 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: moses
In any event this type of critism is hardly constructive.

This type of spelling doesn't help much, either.

Plain fact is, Moses, you never crossed over into the Promised Land. I'm kind of a "Joshua" fan, myself.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to moses)
Post #: 65
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 2:33:54 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter
Ironically I think this game does compare with a NASA product, their are buggy too.

They did put a buggy on the moon back when things were going well.

Defense of a game because "I don't care what's wrong with it, I like it anyway" is like taking the ugly local punch to the drive-in movies: she's good enough for me only when the other guys don't see that I'm with her.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 66
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 4:30:57 AM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Leaders have a substantial effect on combat resolution. I consider myself competent and one of the reasons I do pretty well in my games is leader selection. Not bothering with leaders at all is an option, but if your playing me, Mogami, PzB or any one of a number of other players we will shred you if you ignore leaders.

The leader bug causes the combat value of your units to randomly drop as much as 50% without providing you any warning that this has occurred. If the leader that matters wants to win, he better take advantage of the leader selection process in the game.

Ironically I think this game does compare with a NASA product, their are buggy too.


I made that suggestion in view of the fact that (AFAIK) Dereck plays exclusively against AI. I'm not saying that these complaints are unfounded, but I feel it's been blown a little bit out of proportion.

And if you want to talk about irony, I just had my VADM Halsey replaced by some low ranking major a moment ago in my PBEM. I knew I shouldn't have entered this thread

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 67
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 4:41:19 AM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Leaders have a substantial effect on combat resolution. I consider myself competent and one of the reasons I do pretty well in my games is leader selection. Not bothering with leaders at all is an option, but if your playing me, Mogami, PzB or any one of a number of other players we will shred you if you ignore leaders.

The leader bug causes the combat value of your units to randomly drop as much as 50% without providing you any warning that this has occurred. If the leader that matters wants to win, he better take advantage of the leader selection process in the game.

Ironically I think this game does compare with a NASA product, their are buggy too.


I made that suggestion in view of the fact that (AFAIK) Dereck plays exclusively against AI. I'm not saying that these complaints are unfounded, but I feel it's been blown a little bit out of proportion.

And if you want to talk about irony, I just had my VADM Halsey replaced by some low ranking major a moment ago in my PBEM. I knew I shouldn't have entered this thread



It shouldn't matter if I only play against the AI or play PBEM ... this is a bug (one of many) which never should have made it into the game. The fact that so many people in this thread and others post about it shows I'm not the only person completely frustrated over it.

And I don't think they are blown out of proportion. If I pay money for something I expect it to work. As it is right now it simply isn't. There is no middle ground. Trying to say the game is only 5% not working is like being a little bit pregnant. You either are or aren't.

_____________________________

PO2 US Navy (1980-1986);
USS Midway CV-41 (1981-1984)
Whidbey Island, WA (1984-1986)
Naval Reserve (1986-1992)

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 68
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 4:44:53 AM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Defense of a game because "I don't care what's wrong with it, I like it anyway" is like taking the ugly local punch to the drive-in movies: she's good enough for me only when the other guys don't see that I'm with her.


Well, this is more a case of taking a pretty girl out, and then complaining that you would never have done it if you knew she had such hary legs.

BTW, did you have a good time?


(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 69
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 5:00:33 AM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline 		I was merely suggesting a different perspective to deal with the frustrations. If I say anything more, I'll be only repeating myself.

(in reply to dereck)
Post #: 70
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 5:01:39 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino
BTW, did you have a good time?

Of course.

Did you ever try the "popcorn" trick?

Drive-In concession stands sell popcorn in tall, narrow boxes that fold together at the bottom. What you do is buy one for your "girlfriend" and take it back to the car. While she's watching the movie, you eat about half of the popcorn, then hold the box in your lap while you surreptitiously unzip your pants and whip out your wiener. Then, you quietly open up the bottom of the box, stick your "thang" into it from the bottom, smile at the b*tch, and say, "Would you like some popcorn?"

One of two things can happen. Either she reaches down into the box and gets a real surprise, or she says, "No, thanks." If the latter, you say, "But there's a surprise in the box for you," in which case, you get the intended effect.

If she doesn't stick her hand in the box anyway, you brought the wrong girl to the drive-in movie. Don't despair, I have more information about how to succeed under the "What would you like to do while I drive" title.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 71
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/19/2005 5:18:59 AM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline 		And how does that make a girl 5% pregnant

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 72
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/22/2005 8:34:51 PM   
ctid98


Posts: 146
Joined: 6/19/2003
Status: offline
I've played WitP since the day it came out, UV before that and even way back to Steel Panthers I & II playing right through the wars. Didn't bother with SP III as it was just a poor hack of SP II that tried to part me from more of my hard earn cashed. I'd hoped that WitP wouldn't do the same on UV and I'm happy to say it hasn't as it offered so much more, BUT, I won't be buying another Matrix or Gary game again (not until this ones up to spec at least!).

When WitP came out, it was slow, oh so very slow, had bugs but there was the promise of patches. Patches to fix the bugs, patches to add player recommendations, patches that would make all other games irrelevant, but sadly the patches didn't fix the bugs, they seemed to only add others.

Now I don't mind the interface, I can work with it, but I'm sorry, after a year and a half since release and patches, 1.10, 1.20, 1.21 (I think???) 1.30, 1.40, 1.50, 1.60 we should have elimitated the basic stuff of paratroops disappearing, leaders disappearing, its not the Bermuda Triangle, its functions, packages, arrays and basic programming. Get to grips with it please!!!

I feel that a lot of the problems resulted from the testing and those who did it. Reading the background on a lot of the guys I got the impression that a lot had served in the forces (RESPECT!) and now spent a lot of their spare time on war games (yet more RESPECT, as it beats doing drugs). However being good at a game and playing it a lot does not qualify you as a tester. I could be wrong, they could all have qualified from MIT with flying colours in the field of War Game testing (now thats a course I wish I could have taken when I got my BSc!!!! ), but I don't think that is the case. Poor testing lead to poor feedback which lead to a poor game experience.

We now find ourselves many months down the road sick to the back teeth of bugs that never get fixed and not wanting to play the game any more. I haven't been on this forum for 6 months and hadn't looked at WitP for a similar amount of time because I was tired of waiting, last week I fired it up and what happened, I couldn't load a division fully even though I had all the ships and a bombardment TF sat in mid ocean for 4 turns never going in for the final move (poor leader or not you carry out your orders or do a spell in the glass house!!!). But I figured that as 6 months have passed they'll be a new patch that will have fixed all this and will make me want to spend hours scrolling around the Pacific again, but what do I find, a beta release that has issues.......

I don't like having a go at people, and certainly don't like having a go at WitP as it really is an enjoyable game, but only if it works and it doesn't.

_____________________________

---------------------
Tora! Tora! Tora!

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 73
RE: VADM Halsey Taken Out by the Remove Halsey Code - 12/22/2005 9:57:58 PM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline 		There's a big difference between "play testing" and "program testing". The people who "play tested" didn't do program testing.

Program testing which I can't believe was done to much degree is the job of the programming team. They're the ones who have the program specs and know what it's supposed to do and how it's programmed (like performing SIMPLE tests to make sure arrays don't fill up, etc).

And ctid98 you're right when you said "being good at a game and playing it does not qualify you as a tester". That may be one bad thing about the quality control for this game. In the business world of programming there are people who specialize in quality assurance/testing since it is such a specialized skill. The people who did playtest did so with the best intentions and at the best of their abilities but if they didn't really have a test plan in front of them to know what to test for there wasn't any real systematic bug hunts done. You also don't just test within the system parameters but you also try to break the program to see if you can or if the coding checks for out of parameter situations (such as the arrays filling up).



_____________________________

PO2 US Navy (1980-1986);
USS Midway CV-41 (1981-1984)
Whidbey Island, WA (1984-1986)
Naval Reserve (1986-1992)

(in reply to ctid98)
Post #: 74
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