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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen

 
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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 1:08:07 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

In the system of 24 bit color using RGB, red is set to 255 and G and B are set to 0. That's as red as the system gets. 24 bit color has 2 to the 24 different colors, so if you have a longing for something more red, I doubt that you will ever get it sated. I don't see the computer industry changing the number of color bits for the next couple of decades.

Sure. Maybe adding some brightness ? Is it possible ?
Anyway, your Japanese counters are lovely, with the division square maybe too much orange, I forgot it in the previous post. Pale pink would be better, wouldn't it ?


Pink is an excellent idea for the Japanese divisional interiors.

The only way to add brightness is to introduce more of the G and B which will dilute the red. If we were using a CYMK coloring system, the K would allow for more brightness. Bitmapped graphics under Windows uses RGB. I don't want to go outside of that design envelope, if for no other reason than it increases the likelihood of system crashes.


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Post #: 31
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 1:13:49 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

The only way to add brightness is to introduce more of the G and B which will dilute the red. If we were using a CYMK coloring system, the K would allow for more brightness. Bitmapped graphics under Windows uses RGB. I don't want to go outside of that design envelope, if for no other reason than it increases the likelihood of system crashes.

I know little about CYMK and this "K", but you are right to stay in your design enveloppe . Japanese units are beautiful, yes they are . I was only arguing for the sake of finding if you could try more red, and you told me that more red than 255 red was not possible . I'm pleased, and can't wait to move those Japanese Units all around !!!!!!!

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Post #: 32
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 3:40:22 PM   
Glen Felzien

 

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Terrific job on the units Steve. Regarding some of your questions:

Yes. The Russian interiors are too orange. The basic colour is perfect however.

The US interior colour is perfect.

Regarding the Chinese and maybe others too, for the white print combat/movement factors, maybe black or gray "shadowing" to help make the numbers more visible.

A couple questions from me:

The French blue is the same as the rivers. Is the river colour fixed? Can it be shaded a little darker? Will there be an option to view the map without the units during any point in thegame?

Is this the actual scale of the units vis-a-vie the map hexes? Should the units actually extend beyond the top hex borders?

Finally, the map looks really good with these unit colours. The decision to keep the map colours slightly muted (almost pastel) was well made. The unit colours really do standout in a crisp way. Remember my brain terrain comment? Although I think the use of greys for it on the paper map was brutal (sry but for me it really was dsitracting from a map that was already over the top) I think that maybe the mountain hexes do need some texture added to them. All the other hexes have some super texture patterns to help break up the solid block. but the mountains are too "much". Does this make sense?

Ok, looked at those mountain hexes again and yes there is indeed texture to them. I missed it the first time. Maybe it is just my eyes. I think there ought to be more just to "break it up" some more. Italy look very solid otherwise. Bah, I am sure it i just my eyes.

Frankly, the overall effect of units and map looks very good.


< Message edited by Glen Felzien -- 12/26/2005 3:46:48 PM >


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Post #: 33
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 5:05:42 PM   
scout1


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Shannon,

This isn't specific to the unit counters/color scheme, but can influence how clear they are when viewed.

One feature that I've come to relly like in SSG's Decisive Battless Series (Battles in Normandy and Battles in Italy) is a hot key that basically produces a magnifying glass that use can move across the map. This is helpful as you don't have to change the scale of the map (which you can't really do in those game engines) and still can get a clean/clear look at the map pieces.

Even though the computerized version of WiF has mutliple view factors (I think as I new to the game itself), this would be a nice feature to have. Just wanted to pass along the suggestion.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 34
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 6:08:08 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Glen Felzien
1 - Yes. The Russian interiors are too orange. The basic colour is perfect however.

2 - Regarding the Chinese and maybe others too, for the white print combat/movement factors, maybe black or gray "shadowing" to help make the numbers more visible.

3 - The French blue is the same as the rivers. Is the river colour fixed? Can it be shaded a little darker?

4 - Will there be an option to view the map without the units during any point in thegame?

5 - Is this the actual scale of the units vis-a-vie the map hexes? Should the units actually extend beyond the top hex borders?

6 - Finally, the map looks really good with these unit colours. The decision to keep the map colours slightly muted (almost pastel) was well made. The unit colours really do standout in a crisp way. Remember my brain terrain comment? Although I think the use of greys for it on the paper map was brutal (sry but for me it really was dsitracting from a map that was already over the top) I think that maybe the mountain hexes do need some texture added to them. All the other hexes have some super texture patterns to help break up the solid block. but the mountains are too "much". Does this make sense?

Ok, looked at those mountain hexes again and yes there is indeed texture to them. I missed it the first time. Maybe it is just my eyes. I think there ought to be more just to "break it up" some more. Italy look very solid otherwise. Bah, I am sure it i just my eyes.


I am glad you like the map/units. Now if I can just gather another 100,000 people who do too, things will be rosy indeed.

1 - added to my task list

2 - there aren't enough pixels available for outlining such a small font.

3 - The rivers haven't been modified from CWIF at all. They will look like the ones from the board game when we are done. Essentially, the artist is creating a separate overlay for rivers that I will draw on top of the other terrain.

4 - Removing all the units from view is done with a single mouse click - a simple toggle. I want to add the ability to filter which units are shown on the screen. For example, just the air units when looking at strategic bombing, or only the HQs, or only the armor capable units (armor, mechanized, AT, etc.). I do not have the details worked out for how to enable that. There are other things that have to be decided and implemented first.

5 - Yes. Yes. Bigger units are easier to see. What you have on the screen in front of you is much bigger than what you will see when playing - roughly double the size of the highest resolution possible in the game.

6 - Right now there is one bitmap for each terrain type. I want to expand that to 6 or more for terrain that appears frequently within the area where the land battles commonly occur (western USSR, France, China, North Africa, the Balkans). For example, a 2 hex by 3 hex pattern from which I can cut individual terrain hexes. There are technical details about doing this, which I don't want to go into here. The end result should be a map that is less boring. I also still have under review the entire issue of what each terrain type looks like. They definitely won't be finalized until after the play testers try them out playing through a game.

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Post #: 35
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 6:32:06 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1
Shannon,

This isn't specific to the unit counters/color scheme, but can influence how clear they are when viewed.

One feature that I've come to relly like in SSG's Decisive Battless Series (Battles in Normandy and Battles in Italy) is a hot key that basically produces a magnifying glass that use can move across the map. This is helpful as you don't have to change the scale of the map (which you can't really do in those game engines) and still can get a clean/clear look at the map pieces.

Even though the computerized version of WiF has mutliple view factors (I think as I new to the game itself), this would be a nice feature to have. Just wanted to pass along the suggestion.


There should be one of these little circle faces that makes the sign of the cross to ward off evil.

I know about the ability to create a magnifying effect and have read some code about how to implement it on 24 bit color bitmaps. So, it is definitely doable, even by me. But adding this task on top of so many current ones, isn't going to happen. The real problem with additions is not the addition in and of itself but the interaction of the addition to all the other capabilities. This applies to the game simulation and (as in this case) to the interface design. It has also come up in the past week when I added different colors for divisional units.

What MWIF will provide for viewing units on the screen is much more robust than most war games. 8 levels of zoom, 3 levels of unit resolution that can be tuned by the player to align with the zoom levels. A global map and a linked detail map that the player can use in combination to jump around from China to Eurpoe to the Eastern US coastline at a single mouse click. Multiple detailed maps viewable simultaneously on the screen.

I also intend to add the ability of the player to save detailed map settings: which portion of the map is visible on the screen at what zoom level and what unit resolution level. The intent here is that the player can have a setting for the war in Russia, in China, strategically bombing Britain, North Africa, Italy, etc.. These settings are limitless in number and the player can redefine them whenever he wants. Simply clicking on a defined map setting redraws the detailed map on the screen. You can use this feature to have multiple views of a battelfield available: (1) the whole eastern front, (2) the area around Moscow in high resolution, (3) the area around Rostov and the Caucasus in medium resolution, or (4) a half a dozen more concerning tactical bombers flying ground strikes - (5) whatever.

I am trying to replace the ability the player has over the board of seeing the entire world on a 25 foot square paper map. That isn't easy with a 17 inch monitor. I'm working at it, but magnifying only a portion of the screen with a moving cursor - no way!

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Post #: 36
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 6:44:03 PM   
scout1


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quote:

I am trying to replace the ability the player has over the board of seeing the entire world on a 25 foot square paper map. That isn't easy with a 17 inch monitor. I'm working at it, but magnifying only a portion of the screen with a moving cursor - no way!


I'm assuming this is NOT the only way to drill down and see things. There are (presumably) others. Just that this is another method for a small given portion of the map. One thing I've learned about presenting information is it is beat to present the SAME information in many different approach as not ONE method work for everyone.
The Decisive Battle series also has a preety clean method for deisplaying the frontlines on a strategic map as well.

Do what you want, but just thought you might like to hear about "other" approaches as well. I've found in the past that the UI is BIG part of any game, and NO one approach seems to hit on all cylinders. "Different strokes for different folks".

Anyways, as your post clearly points out, you apparently aren't looking for input other than what you've already decided on, I'll just haunt the forum and look forward to a great game coming out in the future ....


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Post #: 37
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 7:18:55 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1
quote:

I am trying to replace the ability the player has over the board of seeing the entire world on a 25 foot square paper map. That isn't easy with a 17 inch monitor. I'm working at it, but magnifying only a portion of the screen with a moving cursor - no way!


I'm assuming this is NOT the only way to drill down and see things. There are (presumably) others. Just that this is another method for a small given portion of the map. One thing I've learned about presenting information is it is beat to present the SAME information in many different approach as not ONE method work for everyone.
The Decisive Battle series also has a preety clean method for deisplaying the frontlines on a strategic map as well.

Do what you want, but just thought you might like to hear about "other" approaches as well. I've found in the past that the UI is BIG part of any game, and NO one approach seems to hit on all cylinders. "Different strokes for different folks".

Anyways, as your post clearly points out, you apparently aren't looking for input other than what you've already decided on, I'll just haunt the forum and look forward to a great game coming out in the future ....


I apologize if I was too vicious in my repsonse. I didn't intend to be. I have made hundreds of changes, both big and small, to the graphics and to the interface, in response to what forum members have posted. The PBEM design is over 50% from what forum members provided.

I do have an enormous task list to get this game in shape for play testing in the immediate future, and for sale next year. While I would like to provide every feature people want (and the one you described is a very nice feature), I also have a responsibility to the players of WIF that have been waiting for this game since 1996. The trade off is almost always between features and time required to implement the features.

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Post #: 38
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 8:15:56 PM   
Glen Felzien

 

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quote:

4 - Removing all the units from view is done with a single mouse click - a simple toggle. I want to add the ability to filter which units are shown on the screen. For example, just the air units when looking at strategic bombing, or only the HQs, or only the armor capable units (armor, mechanized, AT, etc.). I do not have the details worked out for how to enable that. There are other things that have to be decided and implemented first.


quote:

What you have on the screen in front of you is much bigger than what you will see when playing - roughly double the size of the highest resolution possible in the game.

Ah ok, very nice then.
quote:

6 - Right now there is one bitmap for each terrain type. I want to expand that to 6 or more for terrain that appears frequently within the area where the land battles commonly occur (western USSR, France, China, North Africa, the Balkans). For example, a 2 hex by 3 hex pattern from which I can cut individual terrain hexes. There are technical details about doing this, which I don't want to go into here. The end result should be a map that is less boring. I also still have under review the entire issue of what each terrain type looks like. They definitely won't be finalized until after the play testers try them out playing through a game.

Now that is a very good idea. I wonder, once you have decided on the various bit maps for each terrain type, will the game engine randomly select "M" (mountain) bit maps for all areas of the map marked with an "M" resulting in a dynamic map each time to start a campaign? Or will the map be static once you have decided on what looks best?
quote:

I also intend to add the ability of the player to save detailed map settings: which portion of the map is visible on the screen at what zoom level and what unit resolution level. The intent here is that the player can have a setting for the war in Russia, in China, strategically bombing Britain, North Africa, Italy, etc.. These settings are limitless in number and the player can redefine them whenever he wants. Simply clicking on a defined map setting redraws the detailed map on the screen. You can use this feature to have multiple views of a battelfield available: (1) the whole eastern front, (2) the area around Moscow in high resolution, (3) the area around Rostov and the Caucasus in medium resolution, or (4) a half a dozen more concerning tactical bombers flying ground strikes - (5) whatever.

Now this is very cool. It reminds me alot of Harpoon2 where you could have multiple screens set up at any resolution displaying whatever data types you want. Very nice indeed!

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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/26/2005 9:04:46 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

I wonder, once you have decided on the various bit maps for each terrain type, will the game engine randomly select "M" (mountain) bit maps for all areas of the map marked with an "M" resulting in a dynamic map each time to start a campaign? Or will the map be static once you have decided on what looks best?


The technique is rather simple. Given a 2 hex by 2 hex template (4 hexes - calling it a square isn't quite right), let's label them A1, A2 for the top two hexes and B1, B2 for the bottom two. A1 is used for every hex that has an odd row # and an odd column #. A2 is used for hexes with odd row #s and even column #s. B1 and B2 are used similarly for even rows. This means that no two adjacent hexes have the same terrain pattern. It is trivial to code. No randomness to the map - it will always lok the same. The same scheme can be used for 2x3, 3x3, 4x7, ...; it doesn't matter what size 'rectanlge'. Instead of even and odd the program just calculates the remainder after dividing by 3, 4, or 7.


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Post #: 40
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/27/2005 2:07:53 PM   
Neilster


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All I can think of for displaying the long names is to replace some letters with an apostrophe. The full name can be in the unit dialog box and/or documentation.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/27/2005 7:20:14 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
All I can think of for displaying the long names is to replace some letters with an apostrophe. The full name can be in the unit dialog box and/or documentation.

Cheers, Neilster


I plan on using abbreviations. They will be stored in the unit data file as well as the full name. If there is no abbreviation, then the full name will be used.

However, I think I'll write special code just for the 800 mm German gun because its name is neat. I'll put its name on two lines like it is on the counter.



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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/28/2005 11:11:51 PM   
c92nichj


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Would it be possible to post screenshots with the different resolutions? For example how will your medium and low resolution look like, when I played CWIF I mostly used the 75% size to fit as much as possible of the map on the screen.

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Post #: 43
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/28/2005 11:30:36 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Would it be possible to post screenshots with the different resolutions? For example how will your medium and low resolution look like, when I played CWIF I mostly used the 75% size to fit as much as possible of the map on the screen.


There is so much conversion going on (BMP -> CDR -> JPEG) that it wouldn't be possible to tell if the loss of legibility were due to the 75% resolution or something else.

Medium resolution will drop the unit names for the land units, and replace the WIF counter images for the air and naval units with more or less what CWIF used - 2 color icons. I might increase the font size of the combat values too.

Low resolution will replace the more complex NATO symbols with somthing simple (e.g., X for infantry, O for armor) and definiitely increase the font size. For air and naval units I am thinking of going with just the 4 corner numbers in a larger font, plus a simple 2 color icon.

For your purposes, playing at 75% resolution shouldn't be any harder in MWIF than it was in CWIF. I am trying to improve on it if I can.

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Post #: 44
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 12:53:57 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here are revised units for the Japanese. I have replaced the divisional interiors. I tried Patrice's pink but it was a disaster. The red just overwhelmed it. The more neutral pale yellow works ok. I lightened the interior of the corp units though not by much. When I made them too bright, they looked the same as the basic red for Japan and the interior disappeared. The militia symbol is more legible here




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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 12:59:10 AM   
Glen Felzien

 

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These look super. Yup. Very nice indeed.

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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 1:03:58 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here are the SS units intermixed with some regular German army units. The SS needed a lot of work for a variety of reasons. I replaced the red from the counter sheets with yellow. I just couldn't get the red bright enough to be seen as lower resolutions. The black surrounding it seemed to absorb it visually. The yellow might take some getting use to for those of you expecting red. However, the numbers are clearly visible now even when zooming out to 100%. No more squinting and eye strain.

I am now making the color of the M for the militia match the outline for the NATO symbol. This has the benefit of making it stand out more sharply.

I am keeping the blue for the flying boats as it was before. Patrice asked for it to match the color of the sea and I considered doing that. But these units can land in lake hexsides too and the color for the lakes, coastal hexes, and all sea hexes are 3 different shades of blue. So I punted, and kept the existing blue because it is so very easy to read the white number against it.




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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 1:11:59 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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The Canadians. Next on my list is to add the letters CA to the right of the NATO symbol, rotated 90 degrees. The color will be yellow. I will do the same for all the Commonwealth member nations: NZ, AU, IN, SA, and UK.

I had to choose between two conflicting standards here: (1) white print units get white interiors and (2) Canadians get yellow interiors. I went with the white interiors and I am adding the letters to compensate for the linformation that is lost by not using yellow.




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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 1:15:15 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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The Aussies. Note that both the elite and the standard army units have white interiors and red outlines for their NATO symbols. The only distinguishing characteristic is the white lettering versus black for the names and unit size (XXX). AU needs to be added top all these units.




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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 1:18:57 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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And New Zealand (the Kiwis).




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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 1:51:54 AM   
Glen Felzien

 

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Pale yellow on black for the SS units looks good; especially if it makes viewing easier. I know it has been a while since I last played but I remember all SS units were "white" print. Why is there both white and yellow?

Personally I like the yellow interior for all Canuck units. This would leave the actual numbers to distinguish between white and black print units. To me that's cool. Has something changed over the last few years to make white interiors mean something else.

Could the interior of the NZ units be a slight different shade of blue as compared to the surrounding colour if for no other reason than to add further colour to the unit pallete as a whole?

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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 2:08:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Glen Felzien

Pale yellow on black for the SS units looks good; especially if it makes viewing easier. I know it has been a while since I last played but I remember all SS units were "white" print. Why is there both white and yellow?

Personally I like the yellow interior for all Canuck units. This would leave the actual numbers to distinguish between white and black print units. To me that's cool. Has something changed over the last few years to make white interiors mean something else.

Could the interior of the NZ units be a slight different shade of blue as compared to the surrounding colour if for no other reason than to add further colour to the unit pallete as a whole?


The counter sheets have SS units with white lettering and red lettering. The white are elite, the red aren't. In the rules, the term "white print unit" means elite and there are different rules for them concerning their strength when out of supply.

Wait until after I add the CA, NZ, et al for final judgment on the member nation colors. For example, the NZ territorial unit has the letter T in white. The NZ will alo be white and use a slightly larger font. Making the interior of the NZ units darker is always a possibility.

I have found that changing 2 colors at once on the same unit never works out. They need to be tweaked a bit at time and kind of cajoled into becoming beautiful. It makes me think of women getting ready for an important evening out.

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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 2:09:06 AM   
Alexander Seil

 

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Well, if there is a conflict of principles, shouldn't the distinction between units of different nations take precedence? If doing white backgrounds for Commonwealth units makes them look like Australians, drop that principle in favor of white print. Otherwise, the player frustration will know no bounds, besides the fact that it will look downright silly.


By the way, the newer pics of the terrain look good...maybe I won't bother with changing it all to CWiF standard


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Post #: 53
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 2:34:22 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil
Well, if there is a conflict of principles, shouldn't the distinction between units of different nations take precedence? If doing white backgrounds for Commonwealth units makes them look like Australians, drop that principle in favor of white print. Otherwise, the player frustration will know no bounds, besides the fact that it will look downright silly.

By the way, the newer pics of the terrain look good...maybe I won't bother with changing it all to CWiF standard


As I often do, I am going to step back a bit and present a broader understanding of the problem. It would be nice if I could give a quick and short response to your suggestion, but there just isn't one.

First here is part of post #10 from this thread:
==========
There seem to be several different pieces of information we would like to convey using horizontal stripes:

1 - lend leased units

2 - loaned units (which major power moves the unit - may be temporary)

3 - aligned units (which major power controls the aligned country and therefore the unit)

4 - captured units (originally owned by another nation but now in the employ of a major power)

Examples:

1 - usually USA planes to CW or USSR

2 - CW units in France during 1940; Italian units in USSR; German units in Africa

3 - Rumania, Hungary, Finland to Germany; Netherlands, Belgium, Poland to CW; Manchuria, Korea, French Indo-China to Japan;

4 - Bearn to USA, Yugoslavian CA to Italy, French sub to Italy, Danish and Norwegian naval units to CW

As the code currently stands the solutions to these 4 caases are:

1 - central stripes added to unit to indicate the source country (they might want it back)

2 - bottom stripe added to unit to indicate controlling country (the control is only temporary)

3 - the original colors of the unit are unchanged; the countries themselves get half flags of the controlling major power to indicate their possession is through alignment

4 - the original colors of the unit are unchanged; I actually have been making changes to the code to accomplish this during setup of the later scenarios; it is a real pain because the country has either been conquered completely or partially and its units have been marked as removed from the game. I have to perform CPR on them to get them back. I have been preserving the original color scheme because I like the visual of the CW having naval units from a wide diversity of countries under its control.

That's the problem, the goals, and the current status.

Ideas? I'm going to work on other stuff while you thrash this out.
================

In reviewing the existing code, I have found that territorial units have their base color set to that of the controlling player. This has some surprising effects, that after reflection are correct. The conquered Ethiopian units are red, as they will be if they are liberated. The Ethiopian territorial units are light green to match their conqueror, the Italians. Now the Italians can't build them, so it doesn't really matter. I get the same effect for the Senegalese, and the NEI. The NEI territorial uses the Commonwealth base color, but the NEI militia unit does not. It has the Netherlands base color.

So, as currently coded, the territorial units change their base color to match the controlling player.

I have no real preference about all this at the present. The problem has been noticed only recently, and I haven't thought it through. Indeed, I am still gathering a better understanding of all the issues involved and looking forward to recommendations from forum members.

The problem is that the colors communicate information. There are at least two pieces of information we would like to gain from the color of a unit: (1) what country is it from, and (2) which major power controls it. The former dictates whether it may be lost because its owning country gets conquered. The latter lets us know which units can cooperate in attacks (particularly air and land units). Both of these are important to game play and are not merely eye candy.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Alexander Seil)
Post #: 54
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 2:59:57 AM   
Alexander Seil

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/22/2003
Status: offline
I do not see, then, why the code should be changed at all, although Territorials should still show up in their "political", rather than military, controller's colors (KNIL troops shouldn't be showing up as British). As for captured units, is there any need for a *solution* other than making them show up as a unit fully belonging to the conquering nation? What's the use of knowing that such and such ship was captured from, say, Finland if that has no bearing on its behavior?

To get back to my original point, though, while having different backgrounds for elite and regular units is fine, the limitation to that rule should be that units must be distinguished by nationality using colors alone, as anything else is contrary to common sense and practice in other wargames.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 55
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 3:42:07 AM   
Glen Felzien

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 5/21/2000
From: Swan Hills, Alberta, CDN
Status: offline
quote:

The counter sheets have SS units with white lettering and red lettering. The white are elite, the red aren't. In the rules, the term "white print unit" means elite and there are different rules for them concerning their strength when out of supply.

Ah ok, things have changed since I last played. The SS units where valued due to them all be white print but the game has evolved much since then.

_____________________________

Glen

(in reply to Alexander Seil)
Post #: 56
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 4:19:24 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
Dumb question. What happens if the player is color blind ?

(in reply to Glen Felzien)
Post #: 57
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 5:17:30 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

1 - As for captured units, is there any need for a *solution* other than making them show up as a unit fully belonging to the conquering nation? What's the use of knowing that such and such ship was captured from, say, Finland if that has no bearing on its behavior?

2 - To get back to my original point, though, while having different backgrounds for elite and regular units is fine, the limitation to that rule should be that units must be distinguished by nationality using colors alone, as anything else is contrary to common sense and practice in other wargames.


1 - There is a continuous desire for historical verisimilitude. The Commonwealth has naval units from a whole lot of different countries. Rather than make them all apear identical, providing some indication of their provenence makes for a more interesting visual. There is a balance to be maintained here though. If the diversity of colors interferes with playing the game, then it is excessive. I am still seeking to fine tune that balance, and since it is subjective, I am trying to adjust it to suit as many players as I can. As always, success is having the number of players who think it is too much equal the number who think it is too little. Hopefully those are both small numbers.

2 - Color hue, color brightness, color contrast, shape, size, texture, and positioning are the tools for distinguishing one unit from another.

Keeping the position of things the same makes it easy for the player to interpret what the number, letter, icon, or symbol means, so changing the positioning of an element of the unit depiction is sort of off limits.

There aren't enough pixels to do texture very well.

Size is dynamic with zoom but it can be used in relative terms. However, there aren't a lot of pixels to play around with.

Shape is what we have been using to determining unit type for land units (the NATO symbol). It will also be used for air and naval units: fighters, bombers, ATR, naval air, and carrier planes each have a fundamental shape.

Which leaves us primarily with the colors to communicate ownership (original, borrowed, lend leased, controller). Hue is the most striking way to do this but it is invisible to some players. Brightness and contrast are more universally visible.

The banding proposed previously works very nicely too but it is heavy handed. It should be applied only rarely, or else the units on the map would become so diverse that all the meaning of the colors would be lost.
--------------

And so we tweak our way along. Strong emotions on this topic actually hinder progress. I strive for a relaxed open mind when listening to suggestions. Once I have it all decided and coded, then I will harden my position - though the play testers will get another shot at complaining about things and forcing me to recode stuff.

Today I increased the number of bits for unit types from 6 to 7, so instead of an upper limit of 64 unit types I now have 128. The current count is exactly 64 and I need to add new unit types for Cruisers in Flames and Convoys in Flames.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Alexander Seil)
Post #: 58
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 5:48:08 AM   
Glen Felzien

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 5/21/2000
From: Swan Hills, Alberta, CDN
Status: offline
quote:

Dumb question. What happens if the player is color blind ?


lol Not so dumb. One of our regulars played with several groups I was in. It was years before we found out he was colour blind! He told us that although he was not always sure (Italians on the Pacific map, Japanese on the European) he depended on the unit shades as much as colour. Frankly, I would never have guessed it until the two force pools were layed out side by side and he began deploying Italians in Japan!

_____________________________

Glen

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 59
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/29/2005 6:32:21 AM   
pak19652002

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 1/2/2005
Status: offline
I'm another member of this forgotten minority and have raised this issue several times in the past. Steve has assured me that Matrix publishes its games in full compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act.

In other words, he promised to make important information available in ways color blind people can perceive.

I faithfully label every Italian unit in the CyberBoard production circle, because they look EXACTLY the same to me. The US and Russians look very similar also because it's red and green that most color blind men can't distinguish. I call the color I see GRED. That's the best way I can describe it to normals. The red or green in any color fades or disappears depending on the severity of the color blindness as well as other factors such as color intensity, lighting, etc.

Peter

P.S. You'd be surprised how easy it is to conceal color blindness...even from yourself. I didn't even know I was color blind until, at 22, the Navy disqualified me after I failed the test. But, that's a story for another day...


(in reply to Glen Felzien)
Post #: 60
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