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RE: Civ IV.. - 12/5/2005 4:30:42 AM

pasternakski

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Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny
It IS a true CIV.
Activision bought the license for Advanced Civilization from Avalon Hill. And based the rule set on the boardgame. Who actually produced it or hammered out the code is a moot point.
Microprose got sued by AH and Activision for the name: Sid Miers Civilization, SMC.

This is inaccurate in a number of respects, old scout. The dispute over use of the word "civilization" in a game title (computer or otherwise) goes back to the time before AH acquired publishing rights to the paper-and-cardboard Civilization game (for which it later developed a module called Advanced Civilization). Word got around that a computer game called Civilization was in the works just about the time AH was beginning work (through a third-party developer) on a computer version of its Civilization. A tentative deal was reached whereby Sid Meier et al would proceed with their game while AH changed its title to Advanced Civilization. Things might have calmed down, except Microprose's game became a huge hit and AH was slowly going down the tubes and saw the situation as a possible way to recover some damages. Nastiness involving lawyers ensued. When other people buying rights and planning sequels got involved, the whole thing became a bloody mess that was resolved only through negotiation and cash settlements (and, in a couple of instances, assignment of fractional royalty rights). After Hasbro bought AH in 1999, including by-then dormant rights to the Advanced Civilization game, it was just lawyer play for a couple of years until the parties got tired of paying legal fees and getting nothing for it (kind of an intellectual property "Jarndyce v. Jarndyce," for those hip to Dickens references).

The AH computer game Advanced Civilization has nothing in common with any of the Sid Meier games and spinoffs except inclusion of the word "civilization" in the title.

I have a copy of Advanced Civilization, and it's really a fun little game (as patched) despite some instability that causes the occasional crash (but you can pick up at the last save point and usually play on through).

The AI can handle as many as seven computer players (of eight maximum players) without cheating and give you a good run for your money, beating you when you encounter too many "calamities" along the way (Civil War in particular can be a major b1tch). It's not a "gang up on the human" fest like the other civilization games, either. These guys are ruthless and will mess with each other as readily as with you. The only shortcoming with the AI players is that they are not quite as efficient and sensible late in the game when things are extremely complicated as they are in the beginning.

All in all, if you like this kind of "empire building" stuff, I rate this as one of the very best computer strategy game designs of all time (and you NEVER win by conquering the world - likewise, you almost NEVER see a player completely eliminated).

Beats the crap out of anything I've seen in game play from my neighbor's copy of Civ 4 ...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to gunny)

Post #: 61

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/5/2005 8:58:23 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
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From the Strategist 29 (September 1998):

"Francis Tresham designed Civilization and manufactured it through Hartland Trefoil in 1980. In 1981, Avalon Hill obtained the US license and it sold well. Advanced Civilization followed in 1992. In 1994, AH announced it would shift its emphasis to computer games and would convert many of its titles to that format. The better-selling manual games were naturals for this status, and Advanced Civilization appeared in 1995. In April 1997, AH announced that Activision would receive the rights to the name Civilization and produce a new version.

The problem with this all this was Sid Meier�s Civilization, a MicroProse product. SMC is wildly popular and has even attracted Usenet get-a-life groups. MicroProse, in financial difficulties of its own, was not the least bit happy with AH�s plans and apparently made nasty noises. AH and Activision sued MicroProse over the name in November 1997. In December, MicroProse bought Hartland Trefoil, Francis Tresham�s services, and all the rights to Civilization and the 1829 rail game system (AH did 1830, also a decent seller). In short, no more licenses. On July 14, 1998, Avalon Hill capitulated, turning all rights over to MicroProse and agreeing to pay them $411,000. AH could sell its remaining Civilization inventory, but no more after that. MicroProse then licensed Activision to produce Civilization: Call to Power. According to rumors, the AH payment allowed MicroProse to meet its last payrolls. Jackson Dott, AH�s President, announced that he was happy with the settlement. It is hard to see why, unless you consider that MicroProse could have forced Avalon Hill to not sell any more copies whatsoever. Since the two board versions sell for $75 combined, AH could have recovered its 400 grand by selling about 5500 sets, especially since word of the agreement set off a rush to buy the last remaining manual copies. It is also possible that Activision had paid Avalon Hill earlier for its license, and AH could have kept these funds. Maybe they kept the rights to 1830. Another possibility will be stated later. "

It was further hypothesized that if one analyzes the dates, its likely Avalon Hill was forced to settle and take the unfavorable terms due to the impending sale to Hasbro as companies hate to inherit lawsuits.

Hasbro paid only $6 million for AH according to that article. When Hasbro subsequentely bought Microprose, they paid $70 million for it.

PS. The wikipedia definition for civilization states that Sid Meier was a player of the game and loved it. There are plenty of similarities between the original CIV and the board game, but the things that make Avalon Hill's version so special were mostly lost. It's too bad such a great game has to be a permenant casualty now in the wake of Sid Meier's success...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_board_game

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 62

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/5/2005 3:26:37 PM

Cmdrcain

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From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain
Humm It is CIV "IV" and you say "VI" of them played

I knew someone would bite. Somewhere between Sid Miers Civ II and Civ III. Activision put out Civ CTP and Call to Power 2. They were very good and more so resembled Civ IV. Plus technology went from ancient to hover tanks and space marines.

I don't consider that activision ripoff a true "CIV" Version..
Its Sid or not

It IS a true CIV.
Activision bought the license for Advanced Civilization from Avalon Hill. And based the rule set on the boardgame. Who actually produced it or hammered out the code is a moot point.
Microprose got sued by AH and Activision for the name: Sid Miers Civilization, SMC.

Civilization per se isn't a tradmarkable word, it is a useage word, I'd guess that AH Lost, after all
"Civilization" is a Word that defines a concept.

What matters is how close a game resembles another in look and feel, Sid Meiers Civilization would simply be a title of a Game of Sid Miers, based on the Concept of Civilization, AH's Civilization is simply another game based on the concept of civilization, no one can own "civilization" per se it is a use word.

Theres been a Civilization II, III, IV so AH Iexpect lost, how close the two games in look/feel would been an important thing, not the use of the word "civilization"

So "Sid Meiers Civilization" I'd guess was found a legal trademark and wasn't to Be confused by "Advanced Civilization"

Of Course I could be wrong, however If Sid had lost then his Version II, III, IV wouldn't have the word Civilization in it...

The Idea of a game based on Human Civilization has to have been a thing done before Computer games,
no company can own outright the CONCEPT of Civilization, only the look and feel of their particular version of any game based on the Concept, Same as theres so many versions of WW II games, European war, Pacific war, Battle of Bulge, etc
as all those are concepts none can own outright, only their particular type of look and feel of their games..

To cut this short...

This is about MEIERS versions of Civilization, thats why I said Activisions isn't in my mind a True "civ"
it is a Civilization type of game but you cannot count it and include it with Meiers versions so theres only FOUR versions of Meiers Civ... I II, III, IV.

Play the World and Civ 3 Conquests are MODS of Civ III, so part of Civ III proper, you tried include
non-Meier Civ games in there which affronted me.

Btw besides Meiers, AH and Activision theres been other Civ type games back into board gaming..

_____________________________

Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!

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(in reply to gunny)

Post #: 63

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/5/2005 6:57:33 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

PS. The wikipedia definition for civilization states that Sid Meier was a player of the game and loved it. There are plenty of similarities between the original CIV and the board game, but the things that make Avalon Hill's version so special were mostly lost. It's too bad such a great game has to be a permenant casualty now in the wake of Sid Meier's success...

The Strategist article is one of the more lucid explanations of this extremely complicated legal morass and is pretty much accurate in all particulars. AH found the terms "favorable" because they needed to offload this baggage before Hasbro would go through with the purchase (prudently not wanting to buy into litigation with an uncertain, and possibly expensive, outcome).

Never trust Wikipedia, my friend, it's one of the greatest sources of misinformation yet devised (the only worse one I know of is the Word grammar checker). Encyclopedia entries by the ignorant and uninformed. I do agree with your point, though. In the Civ world, Sid is the 900-pound gorilla.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 64

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/6/2005 12:21:55 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
The Strategist article is one of the more lucid explanations of this extremely complicated legal morass and is pretty much accurate in all particulars. AH found the terms "favorable" because they needed to offload this baggage before Hasbro would go through with the purchase (prudently not wanting to buy into litigation with an uncertain, and possibly expensive, outcome).

Of course it doesn't really matter in the legal world who is right but AH should have won and added 3 to 10 million or more into the AH bank. Then Monarch Avalon wouldn't have even needed to sell them. And I could be playing a new AH Wargame right now.

quote:

Never trust Wikipedia, my friend, it's one of the greatest sources of misinformation yet devised (the only worse one I know of is the Word grammar checker). Encyclopedia entries by the ignorant and uninformed.

Never trust anything on the Internet.

Wikipedia is usefull more as sort of a handmade search engine. Where google can give you just about anything at random in many cases, a search of Wikipedia type sites generally give you something at least halfway on topic by someone at least marginally interested in the topic, and often with a dozen or so highly on topic links that might be very difficult to find through search engines alone. The Diplomacy entry for example has dozens of interesting links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_%28game%29

Though not all entries are link extensive, for example the Squad Leader one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_Leader

But its as ideal a spot as any to direct someone too when they might otherwise know very little about the topic. I doubt any credible encyclopedia has an entry for the Squad Leader game.

Never trust anything on the net! Not even what I am posting. It's probably not even me posting it.

quote:

I do agree with your point, though. In the Civ world, Sid is the 900-pound gorilla.

Advanced Civilization was probably one of the best computer games, if not the best, that Avalon Hill ever put out. That and 5th Fleet. At least the later title sold well. I don't have numbers for Advanced Civ, but I'd imagine it probably did better than it even should have given its name similarity. AH was smart to diversify their boardgame portfolio, but that model often doesn't work the same in the computer game world. It adds to much additional risk of crappy releases and ultimately of ruining your name which is what AH did in the computer world long before those 2 games were even made.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 65

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/6/2005 3:37:44 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
AH should have won and added 3 to 10 million or more into the AH bank. Then Monarch Avalon wouldn't have even needed to sell them. And I could be playing a new AH Wargame right now.

I can tell you as one who knew all the players at the time that AH was cold chicken no matter what. It was a sinking ship that every rat wanted to abandon. The only question that remained was how much treasure could be salvaged from the wreck.

quote:

The Diplomacy entry for example has dozens of interesting links:

I stay away from such third-party places you have to access by "click." Worms and trojans abound, and anti-virus software will not protect you. Not even a cast-iron condom.

quote:

Never trust anything on the net! Not even what I am posting. It's probably not even me posting it.

"Watson, you have developed a certain unexpected pawky sense of humor ..."

quote:

...and ultimately of ruining your name which is what AH did in the computer world long before those 2 games were even made.

Heeheehee. Right on. Who can ever forget "Civil War"?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 66

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/6/2005 5:40:41 AM

gunny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain
To cut this short...

This is about MEIERS versions of Civilization, thats why I said Activisions isn't in my mind a True "civ"
it is a Civilization type of game but you cannot count it and include it with Meiers versions so theres only FOUR versions of Meiers Civ... I II, III, IV.

Play the World and Civ 3 Conquests are MODS of Civ III, so part of Civ III proper, you tried include
non-Meier Civ games in there which affronted me.

Btw besides Meiers, AH and Activision theres been other Civ type games back into board gaming..

Yeah sort of my intent actually. But it did spawn some relevant historical discussions regarding the licence.

_____________________________

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Post #: 67

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/6/2005 6:29:26 PM

Pippin

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Finally! After I don't know how many tries, I fluked out on a win at Prince level.

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Post #: 68

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/7/2005 2:24:59 PM

Pippin

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Hah! Just managed another time victory again. Not going to even attempt to play this on a higher level though.

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Post #: 69

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/7/2005 9:21:01 PM

Akira110

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I had great expectations for this game. I tried the demo and left it with the feeling of emptyness. It amazes me games such as this get the priase and high reviews that they do. It's a sad day for PC gamers.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 70

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/10/2005 10:44:30 PM

Pippin

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Ok, I finaly got a pattern down pretty well. I chose Victoria as a leader, cause that gives you Expansionist Industrial, or was that Expansionist and Financial?

Special unit is the red-coat, which is a pretty decent unit. It's just a tad weaker than the machine-gunist, yet is able to attack.

I often make only 2 or three cities early, then just crank out all the war units. I'll attack steal a city... make peace... attack steal another city.. then make peace... add infinitum. Seems the only way to win at the game now (ya i know it sucks), but what can you do.

Since the AI goes straight for the space race, only solution is to just butcher and steal everything to put the AI behind.. 99% of the time now I win on just time victories.

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Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

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Post #: 71

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/10/2005 11:29:18 PM

ravinhood

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you warmonger you. lol

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Post #: 72

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/21/2005 12:44:00 AM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
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From: San Diego
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Hi Everyone! Would anyone be able to tell me if it has the cheat feature that Civ II had but CivIII did not? thanks!

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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Post #: 73

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/21/2005 3:02:57 AM

Pippin

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Well, since someone had to bump this one back up. Let me tell you, I have been trying to win on monarch, but it's just not happening. I'm sure the pros must have found some sort of exploit for doing this. I"m still trying to figure them out.

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

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Post #: 74

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/21/2005 4:11:43 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

Well, since someone had to bump this one back up. Let me tell you, I have been trying to win on monarch, but it's just not happening. I'm sure the pros must have found some sort of exploit for doing this. I"m still trying to figure them out.

This is my biggest b1tch with this game (and some of my other b1tches are in the 250-pound range, so this one is REALLY big).

I have been playing my neighbor's copy - he has already gotten so disgusted with it he has taken it off his hard drive - and it's really ridiculous. You don't immerse yourself in the system and learn how to play well, all you can do is labor to learn the "tricks" that will allow you to overcome the extreme bias against the human player the designers apparently thought was necessary to make the AI competitive.

It's a drag. A well-known drag. The lads often sit round and watch her for a giggle. We turn the sound down on her and say rude things.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 75

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/21/2005 6:08:29 AM

Vyshka

Posts: 275
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From: Chandler, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny

Microprose got sued by AH and Activision for the name: Sid Miers Civilization, SMC.

Which resulted in financial situation that had TAHGC being sold off by Monarch to Hasbro. It's all Sid's fault damn him!!

I wonder if they ever made a profit on their pc games. I imagine the development costs were far greater than the boardgames.

< Message edited by Vyshka -- 12/21/2005 6:13:23 AM >

(in reply to gunny)

Post #: 76

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/23/2005 2:02:10 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

Well, since someone had to bump this one back up. Let me tell you, I have been trying to win on monarch, but it's just not happening. I'm sure the pros must have found some sort of exploit for doing this. I"m still trying to figure them out.

It's easy, they all play on the smallest maps with only 3 civs.

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 77

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/23/2005 2:08:12 AM

Pippin

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Ahah! Next time (maybe tonight), I'm going to try that one!

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Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

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Post #: 78

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/23/2005 10:08:04 AM

Charles2222

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CIV4 has a v1.52 patch out now. The auto-update has to be used through the game, as it's not at the firaxis website yet.

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 79

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/25/2005 12:09:02 AM

Pippin

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Well i finaly beat it on monarch. That was the only way possible, by using a tiny map. Anyhow I have since finally uninstalled the game, which will cause me less frustration and more free time. I think over all I am more of a fan of civ III. I just don't like these types where you have to exploit in order to beat a TUFF level.

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Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

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Post #: 80

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/25/2005 6:52:33 AM

ravinhood

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Well just because you beat Prince level ONCE doesn't mean you will win two in a row. ;) Too many people beat a game once and think it's beatable everytime after that. Tain't always so with CIV games, cause you don't always get a choice setup everytime and you get more aggressive or less agressive ai neighbors also. ;) It's a never ending game of challenge for me. That's why it will never leave my hard drive. Like HOI did. ;)

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 81

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/25/2005 8:48:54 AM

Charles2222

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Yeah, the funny thing is that though I only have had CIV3 for like the past 1 1/2 years I only played like three or four different civs, but then my wins were so few that I felt I had to concentrate on just a few.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 82

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/28/2005 1:34:56 AM

Pippin

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I still can't believe I haven't re-installed Civ IV. I am however still fighting off the urge to put in civ III. Grrrrr... Better wait until I finish these other packages first though.

I can't remember now if chop-rushing was a viable strategy in civ iii.

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

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Post #: 83

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/28/2005 1:51:13 AM

TheHellPatrol

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FYI, I read complaints on one of the Civ forums that "Civ 4 fried my video card". Well, my Alienware's video card(BFG FX5700 Ultra 128mg) has died after moving up to the "standard map"

. It's almost two years old, and luckily covered by my onsite warranty, but it leads you to wonder. Of course, the new patch should cover their tracks errr....fix the lag

.
I don't like "3D" versions of "2D" games but Civ4 is a gem IMHO.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 84

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/28/2005 2:21:46 AM

Pippin

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Even with my fancy radeon, that game ran SLOWWWW... I wouldn't have minded a 2-D sprite system again. Lag sucks.

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

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Post #: 85

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/29/2005 8:52:46 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I still can't believe I haven't re-installed Civ IV. I am however still fighting off the urge to put in civ III. Grrrrr... Better wait until I finish these other packages first though.

I can't remember now if chop-rushing was a viable strategy in civ iii.

It used to be. What it used to do is it would allow you to infinitely chop and then regrow the same hex. The latest stage IIRC wouldn't allow you to regrow the forests in a chopped hex (I'm not too sure about that), but what it wouldn't let you do is get infinite shields from chopping the same hex. I'm not sure hwo vanilla civ worked anymore, but they also wouldn't allow ANY chops, be it the first chop or not, to put the shields into building wonders. If you chopped during wonders you would get no credit for the chop.

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 86

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/29/2005 6:23:41 PM

anarchyintheuk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I still can't believe I haven't re-installed Civ IV. I am however still fighting off the urge to put in civ III. Grrrrr... Better wait until I finish these other packages first though.

I can't remember now if chop-rushing was a viable strategy in civ iii.

It used to be. What it used to do is it would allow you to infinitely chop and then regrow the same hex. The latest stage IIRC wouldn't allow you to regrow the forests in a chopped hex (I'm not too sure about that), but what it wouldn't let you do is get infinite shields from chopping the same hex. I'm not sure hwo vanilla civ worked anymore, but they also wouldn't allow ANY chops, be it the first chop or not, to put the shields into building wonders. If you chopped during wonders you would get no credit for the chop.

One of the reasons for going back to Civ II. It's been so long since I played III, maybe I should reinstall it.

(in reply to Charles2222)

Post #: 87

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/30/2005 8:17:10 AM

ravinhood

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Lol you guys think of things I never would have thought of. What a way to exploit the game mechanics. lol

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Post #: 88

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/30/2005 10:49:51 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I still can't believe I haven't re-installed Civ IV. I am however still fighting off the urge to put in civ III. Grrrrr... Better wait until I finish these other packages first though.

I can't remember now if chop-rushing was a viable strategy in civ iii.

It used to be. What it used to do is it would allow you to infinitely chop and then regrow the same hex. The latest stage IIRC wouldn't allow you to regrow the forests in a chopped hex (I'm not too sure about that), but what it wouldn't let you do is get infinite shields from chopping the same hex. I'm not sure hwo vanilla civ worked anymore, but they also wouldn't allow ANY chops, be it the first chop or not, to put the shields into building wonders. If you chopped during wonders you would get no credit for the chop.

One of the reasons for going back to Civ II. It's been so long since I played III, maybe I should reinstall it.

Being a WWII buff, when I play, naturally my favorite period is during the WWII period. In CIV2 I have to endlessly plot my stupid planes back and forth to the target and base; quite exhausting over a extended period. I also despise CIV2's use of spies, as they're way too powerful. I much prefer CIV3 for those reasons. The only reason I keep CIV2 around is for the wonder movies and the council. I suppose one day I might make some way where I could play it without the last two ages, but then there would still be the spy problem. Perhaps I could find some way to edit out the blasted spy?

I like CIV3 quite a bit better overall, though the AI selling techs between themselves constantly and often ganging up on the human aren't exactly my cup of tea. Well at least I figured fair ways to get around those sort of problems to a good extent, but it's CIV4 for me right now.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 89

RE: Civ IV.. - 12/30/2005 10:52:39 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Lol you guys think of things I never would have thought of. What a way to exploit the game mechanics. lol

I didn't think of the constant wood chopping myself, but after reading enough Civ forums your mind gets infiltrated. At least I never used that exploit. If the AI uses it, fine, but otherwise I'll have no competition if I exploit game.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 90