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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen

 
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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/30/2005 11:43:14 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Or the one from Post 117 (the normal German flag) with a Balkenkreuz (the black cross from the flag of post 150) to replace the Svastika. I think it is the best.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 151
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/30/2005 11:49:39 PM   
Rorgg

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		If you're going ahistorical to use the Balkankreuz anyway, might as well go all the way and just have the full Balkankreuz flag, which may or may not be authentic, but is probably more recognizeable:



That'd be my second choice after the red-white-black tricolor.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 152
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 12:03:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Or the one from Post 117 (the normal German flag) with a Balkenkreuz (the black cross from the flag of post 150) to replace the Svastika. I think it is the best.


Here is a quick and dirty I replacing the swastika with a cross.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 153
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 12:09:48 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Or the one from Post 117 (the normal German flag) with a Balkenkreuz (the black cross from the flag of post 150) to replace the Svastika. I think it is the best.


Here is a quick and dirty, replacing the swastika in post 117 with a cross.




These pictures are 256 by 128, versus the unit counters at 96 by 96. In the hex, to show control, the flags will be quite small. I haven't looked into this in detail, but it should be (at absolute maximum) 48 by 24. This means that some of the lovely details are going to be mush on the screen. Cleaner and crisper lines with fewer colors are probably a wiser choice. That puts the German tricolor with the centered cross at the top of my current list for the Germans.

At the top of the screen I might be able to use larger images - I would like to anyway.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 154
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 1:37:25 AM   
Caranorn


Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline 		I'd propose a variation of the black white red flag for Germany. Using the swastika (historic representations) is not always illegal, but would be hard to push through in a computer game (I'm shocked to hear there was some trouble with WiF). But obviously the Swastika and any other symbol associated with the Nazi regime (that includes the "Balkenkreuz") will get you added scrutiny. Which is why I'd deem a simple black, white red flag the safest approach.

P.S.: To me that red flag with black cross, circle and swastika in the middle looks a lot like the "Kriegsmarine" flag but I'm not sure (I seem to associate it with submarines for some reason). The red, white circle and swastika is a standard Nazi symbol, both party and state.

P.P.S.: I'm a big antifascist but I cannot agree with those german laws as they are clearly counterproductive (intelectual conrontation with the ideas behind fascism and particularly nazism are really the only way to go, but then that wouldn't please certain adherends of the CDU/CSU (who are currently the no. 1 German political party). On the other hand there is little point in taking risks for publishing MWiF over a flag.

P.P.P.S.: Those are by the way not political police, rather "Verfassungsschutz" "protectors of the constitution", in essence their duty is to watch anyone who is deemed a threat to said constitution. On occasion these services (they exist on the federal and state levels) have been abused to observe opposition groups.

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Marc aka Caran... ministerialis

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 155
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 1:54:04 AM   
Rorgg

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		First choice:

Officially the flag of Germany until the Nazis outlawed it in 1935.

Second choice:


It may be historically inaccurate, but it's closer to the authentic national flag of the era and better lends itself to a smaller icon than the quadranted flag with the Iron cross.

(in reply to Caranorn)
Post #: 156
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 2:13:18 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rorgg

First choice:

Officially the flag of Germany until the Nazis outlawed it in 1935.

Second choice:


It may be historically inaccurate, but it's closer to the authentic national flag of the era and better lends itself to a smaller icon than the quadranted flag with the Iron cross.


All right, I am sufficiently confused now by the alternatives for the German flag. Here's what I propose.

(1) I'll take nominations for choices. Swastikas are out.
(2) After 48 hours, I'll close nominations and let voting commence on the alternatives.
(3) After another 48 hours, I'll close voting.

(4) Then I'll use the top vote getter as the default and the next 2 highest as alternatives that ship with the game and players can swap them in. That also lets those of you not living in Germany switch in a flag with a Swastika too - but none of such will ship with the official game.

Nominations for Germay's flag are now open.
I have the two shown in this post as the first nominations.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Rorgg)
Post #: 157
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 2:38:28 AM   
stretch

 

Posts: 636
Joined: 12/17/2001
Status: offline 		I nominate this one..

quote:

posted by JanSorensen




(in reply to JanSorensen)
Post #: 158
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 3:20:32 AM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stretch

I nominate this one..

quote:

posted by JanSorensen





I like it but I suggest that the centre cross is superimposed on a white circle otherwise I fear the top of the cross will be lost in the black background

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/Greyshaft

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Post #: 159
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 3:56:28 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		I wanted to try it so I tried, and it is ugly.
How can a country with such a flag conquer the world ???





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 160
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 4:04:17 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Serious proposal 1 :




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 161
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 4:05:21 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Serious proposal 2 (variation on the red flag with cross) :


Edit : With the red that should be less red, something in the middle of post 161 & this one.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 162
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 4:14:51 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		Times are REALLY SLOW when you start debating the color of the flag in a game....

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 163
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 5:57:59 AM   
stretch

 

Posts: 636
Joined: 12/17/2001
Status: offline 		Very true. But isn't it cool to have this level of input ? Amazing.


(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 164
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 6:09:58 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Serious proposal 2 (variation on the red flag with cross) :


Edit : With the red that should be less red, something in the middle of post 161 & this one.


Patrice's two suggestions use my very crude version of the cross in the center. For the voting you can assume that the cross will be cleaned up and not so raggedly done.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 165
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 6:40:16 AM   
Glen Felzien

 

Posts: 91
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From: Swan Hills, Alberta, CDN
Status: offline
quote:

Very true. But isn't it cool to have this level of input ? Amazing.


Amen Stretch

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Glen

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 166
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 7:11:50 AM   
pak19652002

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 1/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp


The German Political Police caught a load of the brand new games when they entered Germany last year, and destroyed hundreds of these, and made the local ADG man under political investigation. They suspected him of being pro nazi. You like it or not, but the German Political Police takes it seriously.




I hope you were joking about the ADG German situation.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 167
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 8:57:28 AM   
Alexander Seil

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/22/2003
Status: offline 		It does seem a bit extreme for the political police (of course, it has another name) to pursue a private individual for something like that, but if it were a political party they'd be in trouble. In case you find it unlikely that a Western, democratic state would have an organ of secret police...well, Germany does, to my knowledge. Long live freedom of speech

(in reply to pak19652002)
Post #: 168
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 11:24:05 AM   
Frederyck


Posts: 427
Joined: 12/7/2005
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck
The counters look wonderful. Excellent job! I have one question, though. The MOTs have their small filled in circles "the wheels" only tangentially touching the rectangle above. On the real life counters, it looks like they are somewhat more overlapping. Is this an effect of the larger images on screen?


I can move them up a pixel. That will probably look better.

But "real life counters"? Ya gotta stop talking to them, man! Soon they'll be talking back.



My precioussss counterssss...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 169
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 1:11:48 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: stretch

I nominate this one..

quote:

posted by JanSorensen





I like it but I suggest that the centre cross is superimposed on a white circle otherwise I fear the top of the cross will be lost in the black background

I second greyshaft and vote for this one.

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 170
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 2:59:37 PM   
Caranorn


Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

It does seem a bit extreme for the political police (of course, it has another name) to pursue a private individual for something like that, but if it were a political party they'd be in trouble. In case you find it unlikely that a Western, democratic state would have an organ of secret police...well, Germany does, to my knowledge. Long live freedom of speech


Secret Police is yet another issue. I'd expect about every so called western country has one or more of those (I've had a few runins with folk whom I assume (their ID is obviously protected so can never be sure) to belong to the local branch).

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Post #: 171
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 4:45:41 PM   
P8654

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: stretch

I nominate this one..

quote:

posted by JanSorensen





I like it but I suggest that the centre cross is superimposed on a white circle otherwise I fear the top of the cross will be lost in the black background

I second greyshaft and vote for this one.



I vote for this flag as well.

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(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 172
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 7:36:00 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Since we are dealing with territory conqured by Nazi Germany. I think we should use a Nazi flag.

http://www.historicalflags.biz/nazi_flags.htm

< Message edited by Mziln -- 12/31/2005 7:37:49 PM >

(in reply to P8654)
Post #: 173
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 8:29:27 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Since we are dealing with territory conqured by Nazi Germany. I think we should use a Nazi flag.

http://www.historicalflags.biz/nazi_flags.htm


An interesting website.

I still stand by my position that the game will ship without swastikas, but that the players will be able to replace the flags for any and all countries by simply providing their own bitmap for same. The program will stretch/shrink the bitmap flags to the size required for display on the screen. That means the player can provide the flag as a bitmap with any rectangular dimensions.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 174
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 9:28:25 PM   
pak19652002

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 1/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: stretch

I nominate this one..

quote:

posted by JanSorensen





I like it but I suggest that the centre cross is superimposed on a white circle otherwise I fear the top of the cross will be lost in the black background



This one is best, no question. Need the cross or something that people think as a powerful "German" symbol. Too bad you can't go with the swastika, though. We'll just have to get used to it. I wonder if I'll care enough to learn how to modify the flag myself. Will these mods be easy to make?

Peter

I'm still not sold on the the white circle suggestion, though. Let's see how they look side-by-side and on the map.

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 175
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 10:05:54 PM   
macgregor


Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		IMHO while I have no afinity for the symbol of nazism, without swastikas I feel the game will lack some of the historical accuracy normally associated with WiF. If your going to use flags, at least use the correct ones. I guess I have to ask -Could you not include it as a game option at least?

(in reply to pak19652002)
Post #: 176
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 10:44:22 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

IMHO while I have no afinity for the symbol of nazism, without swastikas I feel the game will lack some of the historical accuracy normally associated with WiF. If your going to use flags, at least use the correct ones. I guess I have to ask -Could you not include it as a game option at least?


I would be astonished if someone didn't post a replacement flag that players could download and use. But the game won't contain any swastikas.

And matter of fact, my personal opinion on the matter doesn't matter. Sort of like whether it's better to drive on the left or right side of the road -if you don't go with the flow, you suffer the consequences.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 177
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 12/31/2005 11:17:25 PM   
Glen Felzien

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 5/21/2000
From: Swan Hills, Alberta, CDN
Status: offline 		Regardless if we like it or not, there are cultural and legal sensitivities that must be respected from a business point of view. When Hearts of Iron originally came out, it did so without the Swastika. Ahistorical? Yes. Legel to sell in Germany? Yes. The game's community however made available many game upgrades and enhancements that included more accurate flags all for free via download. I am sure this community will also assist in this aspect and help anyone in need with switching the flag.

On a related note, how much modding will be the game allow? Will there be a packaged scenario builder? This does seem to be very popular past time amongst many gamers.

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Post #: 178
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 1/1/2006 3:11:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Glen Felzien
Regardless if we like it or not, there are cultural and legal sensitivities that must be respected from a business point of view. When Hearts of Iron originally came out, it did so without the Swastika. Ahistorical? Yes. Legel to sell in Germany? Yes. The game's community however made available many game upgrades and enhancements that included more accurate flags all for free via download. I am sure this community will also assist in this aspect and help anyone in need with switching the flag.

On a related note, how much modding will be the game allow? Will there be a packaged scenario builder? This does seem to be very popular past time amongst many gamers.


Nope. No scenario builder. I wish there were one. Each of the 11 scenarios that will come with the game (as per WIF FE) has something completely unique to it. Sometimes only certain countries are in play. Sometimes, the Russians are in the middle of moving factories. Other examples are: mandatory declarations of war, neutrality pact between USSR and Japan, conquered countries, liberated countries, aligned countries, France split into Free France and Vichy, only half the world map in play with the Commonwealth providing and removing naval units for the not-in-use portion of the world map.

There are units in production, reserves that may or may not have been called out, ships that have been replaced (upgraded), the list seems virtually endless when trying to set up all the different parameters to start a scenario. Who's at war with whom, production multiples and when they change, US Entry choices taken, US Entry actions already rolled for.

I spent most of November trying to finish all the scenarios and there are still loose ends for most of them. CWIF only had 3 scenarios completed and they were the easiest to set up. The spreadsheets that come with WIF FE for unit placements at the start of the scenarios are 18 pages long in small type. That was the easy part to encode (most of October).

Building special software so the players can modify these 50 or so scenario bits and pieces certainly isn't going to happen for Product 1. To design, code, and debug it would take a very long time (add 6 months to the release date). No one I know wants to wait that long.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Glen Felzien)
Post #: 179
RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 1/2/2006 3:15:40 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		The Allies.

I have fixed the wheels and the status bar alignment.

Note only the british are in supply (and the Chinese supply unit).

I move the HQ names to the right a touch because of a weirdness when zooming out.

Stilwell is a lighter green.

This is at zoom level 8.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 180
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