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Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945

 
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Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier the... - 1/1/2006 8:55:43 PM   
starsis1

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		I would like to have a discussion on what could soviets have done to win the war earlier then May of 1945. I would suggest that we leave the purges and political system changes outside of the discussion and just concentrate on matters military and industrial. For instance, better pre-war deployment, early war command-and-control organization, tactial and operational doctrines, etc.
Looking forward to hearing what you people think.
Post #: 1
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/1/2006 9:16:03 PM   
Black Mamba 1942


Posts: 510
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline 		This is a trick question, right?

The "Purge" of most of his senior officers rates as my #1 choice.

The major military losses suffered by the USSR, at the start, was do to lack of leadership.
Those that replaced the "Purged" officers knew what had happened to their previous comrades.
Fear of ones own safety takes away initiative at the command level.

(in reply to starsis1)
Post #: 2
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/1/2006 9:32:27 PM   
starsis1

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		I fully agree that the purges were a huge contributing factor to the way the war on the Eastern front shaped itself. However, just for the argument's sake, let's assume that the purges and the soviet social/political system are given. Let's say that things that happened before 1940 (just to be make sure that most of the 1933, 37, 39 purges took place the way they did) stayed the way there were. Given that, would could have happened differently?

(in reply to Black Mamba 1942)
Post #: 3
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/1/2006 9:32:43 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		So you want to have a discussion of how they could have won early without political discussion? That is haveing a discussion of how they could have won early without having a discussion of how they could have won early.

But OK I will stick to military. Better Soviet training in marksmanship results in three times as many casualties for the German army and all the Nazi's dead by 1943.

I'm a genius

(in reply to starsis1)
Post #: 4
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/1/2006 9:41:18 PM   
starsis1

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		I bet taming and training King Kong and Godzilla to fight as part of the 1st Guard Beast Brigade would have helped too. Seriously, do you think about things like deploying first echelon of the troops farther back from the border, or adapting elastic defense with smaller units (cavalry/ligth tanks) to buy time rather then using static infantry formation to defend in place, or withdrawing from Kiev pocket earlier then it happened historically thus preserving last (and arguably the best) large pre-war trained formations for later operations.

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 5
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 4:04:13 AM   
Tristanjohn


Posts: 3027
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Daly City CA USA
Status: offline 		I love this. Yet another phantom account.

Keep up the good work, boys.

_____________________________

Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant

(in reply to starsis1)
Post #: 6
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 5:41:11 AM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

Posts: 837
Joined: 12/1/2005
From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

I love this. Yet another phantom account.

Keep up the good work, boys.


How do you define a 'phantom' account? I only joined a couple of months ago but have more posts that staris1. Does that mean that I am some kind of 'phantom' account? Staris joined about 1.5 years ago. Does this mean that everyone is considered a 'phantom' account until they have some number of posts? Or is it just time that counts? Or do we have to give you all kinds of information?

(in reply to Tristanjohn)
Post #: 7
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 6:25:49 AM   
Tristanjohn


Posts: 3027
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Daly City CA USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

I love this. Yet another phantom account.

Keep up the good work, boys.


How do you define a 'phantom' account? I only joined a couple of months ago but have more posts that staris1. Does that mean that I am some kind of 'phantom' account? Staris joined about 1.5 years ago. Does this mean that everyone is considered a 'phantom' account until they have some number of posts? Or is it just time that counts? Or do we have to give you all kinds of information?


It's impossible to say what is and what is not a phantom account. But it's pretty clear we have these things. In the case of Staris1, we have a guy who's been here what, a year and a half about, right? With how many posts? I make it 13 as I write this. That makes me think at least that someone just trots "him" out when it's convenient to do so. Why people behave like this I don't know, but that's the way it is on the Net.




_____________________________

Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant

(in reply to Cpt Sherwood)
Post #: 8
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 6:39:08 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

It's impossible to say what is and what is not a phantom account. But it's pretty clear we have these things. In the case of Staris1, we have a guy who's been here what, a year and a half about, right? With how many posts? I make it 13 as I write this. That makes me think at least that someone just trots "him" out when it's convenient to do so. Why people behave like this I don't know, but that's the way it is on the Net.


Now that's conspiracy theory at its best !

(in reply to Tristanjohn)
Post #: 9
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 8:33:20 AM   
diesel7013


Posts: 245
Joined: 5/2/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		It's probably Pasts alter ego!

_____________________________



We few, We happy few, We band of brothers

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 10
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 2:45:49 PM   
Tristanjohn


Posts: 3027
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Daly City CA USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

It's impossible to say what is and what is not a phantom account. But it's pretty clear we have these things. In the case of Staris1, we have a guy who's been here what, a year and a half about, right? With how many posts? I make it 13 as I write this. That makes me think at least that someone just trots "him" out when it's convenient to do so. Why people behave like this I don't know, but that's the way it is on the Net.


Now that's conspiracy theory at its best !


Let me ask you this straight: do you think some people run phantom accounts on this board?



_____________________________

Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 11
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 2:47:36 PM   
Tristanjohn


Posts: 3027
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Daly City CA USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: diesel7013

It's probably Pasts alter ego!


Nah, none of them are articulate enough for that.

    (thenagainmaybehesjustbeingclever)



_____________________________

Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant

(in reply to diesel7013)
Post #: 12
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 3:17:33 PM   
Phantom Account

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 1/2/2006
From: Lurksville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Let me ask you this straight: do you think some people run phantom accounts on this board?



No

(in reply to Tristanjohn)
Post #: 13
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 4:42:19 PM   
madmickey

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 2/11/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		I guess Stalin having a car accident is a political change.

(in reply to Phantom Account)
Post #: 14
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 4:42:48 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phantom Account

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Let me ask you this straight: do you think some people run phantom accounts on this board?



No


Ah, come on!! Not even one teensy phantom account?
(btw, P.A., i think i saw you hanging out at your Toll Booth the other day...)

(in reply to Phantom Account)
Post #: 15
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 5:14:51 PM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		I think you all should know that I'm not me, and I'm not here right now. BOOO!

Drugs'll do that to you. Quit smoking to wbich I think has caused some visual halleucinations.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 16
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 7:25:05 PM   
Emilio


Posts: 122
Joined: 8/1/2005
From: Valencia (Spain)
Status: offline 		IMO not fighting with the guts as the soviets did until winter 42. They lost the half of the whole red army only in the Kiev pocket. Instead retreating, delaying the german advance, they lost the gamble at Kiev and almost the war (just for a few weeks). Keeping the red army almost intact would allow better counter offensives in the overextended german lines.

Also the offensive in Kharkov was also a disaster, breaking the german lines, advancing a lot and being trapped after by the flanks. Others disasters as Operation Mars were not really important since the Stalingrad success.

quote:

ORIGINAL: starsis1

I would like to have a discussion on what could soviets have done to win the war earlier then May of 1945. I would suggest that we leave the purges and political system changes outside of the discussion and just concentrate on matters military and industrial. For instance, better pre-war deployment, early war command-and-control organization, tactial and operational doctrines, etc.
Looking forward to hearing what you people think.


(in reply to starsis1)
Post #: 17
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/2/2006 9:58:06 PM   
Phantom Account

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 1/2/2006
From: Lurksville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phantom Account

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Let me ask you this straight: do you think some people run phantom accounts on this board?



No


Ah, come on!! Not even one teensy phantom account?
(btw, P.A., i think i saw you hanging out at your Toll Booth the other day...)


Yep, I was waiting to eats me some billy goats for lunch.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 18
RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier... - 1/3/2006 11:49:49 AM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 658
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		germany could never have won. I posted the link to this article like a year ago, but people dont seem to remember it.

http://rumandmonkey.com/articles/187/

_____________________________

"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne

(in reply to Phantom Account)
Post #: 19
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