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False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play?

 
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False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 12:26:21 PM   
Tristanjohn


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Heads up!

Another member posted the following in another thread. I wondered if any other players had seen this? If not, maybe everyone should start looking for it. If this is so, it's a serious issue. I haven't played the game lately, but next time I do I'll keep my eyes peeled.

    I have found a serious flaw in WITP which allows carriers to be detected even when they cannot possibly be spotted by air, naval or coastwatcher forces. I have not revealed this flaw to anyone yet because it would detract from the enjoyment of the game if people were aware of it. However, I will do so . . . whenever carriers pass near bases the air balance number of that base increases. This air balance number is seen by both sides and is identical for both sides. Simply by watching which bases air balance increase and then decrease gives one a tell-tale sign that carriers have passed by that area.





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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 1:25:23 PM   
ADavidB


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Ha! That's so obvious it's too obvious! It's just too bad that I didn't realize it myself sooner. It certainly will be a great help in tracking the enemy.

Air balance is like base size info - something that shouldn't be visible to both sides without extensive recon and INTEL. But it is, so it becomes yet another tool to use.

This also means that turns will take that much longer to review and set up, but hey, we're already using up so much time on this game - what does a little more mean?

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 1:36:13 PM   
Sneer


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I'll not break my game after commiting hundreds of hours

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 2:13:29 PM   
BossGnome

 

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euh, call me stupid but what exactly is air balance and how do you look at it?

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 2:40:47 PM   
Marten


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when you breath and it's cold you are keeping your air balance, ad you can actualy look at the steam coming from your mouth.

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 2:45:20 PM   
Haplo_Patryn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

euh, call me stupid but what exactly is air balance and how do you look at it?



Did you read all this thread, friend?

The answer is above

< Message edited by Haplo_Patryn -- 1/4/2006 2:49:10 PM >


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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 2:48:16 PM   
mogami


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Hi, anyone trying to track carriers using this method is silly. well good luck to them. I suggest using a utility program. When you react because of a change in airbalance and discover it was a result of LBA groups moving about.
Unless the range is greater then CV aircraft you don't need this method.

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 2:56:07 PM   
Raverdave


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Fools ! All I have to do is to move some C-47s from one base to another to make it look like a CV TF has past by. You would all be better off throwing some bones on the dirt and trying to read into that where the CVs are.

@ Lt. Calley_3 Flock off wanker.


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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 3:01:50 PM   
ctangus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Fools ! All I have to do is to move some C-47s from one base to another to make it look like a CV TF has past by. You would all be better off throwing some bones on the dirt and trying to read into that where the CVs are.

@ Lt. Calley_3 Flock off wanker.



I've actually found disemboweling pigeons quite effective at divining CV TF movement. Makes a bit of a mess of my keyboard, though.

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 3:44:47 PM   
Tristanjohn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Air balance is like base size info - something that shouldn't be visible to both sides without extensive recon and INTEL. But it is, so it becomes yet another tool to use.



Yes, there is entirely too much intel in the game. Another design mistake.




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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 3:44:53 PM   
mogami


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Hi,Top 10 ways of How to detect KB "Death Star" And then achive decisive results against it.

10. Frogmen penetrate Tokyo Harbor defense and count CV and report when airgroups are stood down for training so Doolittle can strike.

9. Position AK every 7 hexes across entire Pacific and then move in for the kill when KB runs out of air missions (just count number of planes that attack each AK and when total exceeds 1000 pounce.)

8. "Madam Zotal" fortune telling machine at carnival.

7. telethapy

6. The Oracle at Delhpi (must be in season)

5. Hang WITP map on wall and throw a dart. Invade the nearest enemy base. If the CV are disbanded they will scuttle if not well at least you know for sure where they are located. (Well maybe. You have to actually get through the enemy LBA and capture the base before TF can be formed and then the CV actually have to be there in the first place but very few Japanese disband their CV in bases close enough for you to reach in 1 turn)


4. Follow the path of destruction using a TF containing 8 USN CV

3. Send all the LBA you can spare to the base in range of where those 12 Japanese divisons have unloaded to defend a base. Be ready to pounce when KB shows up providing CAP for IJN TF composed of 10 BB bent on shore bombardment of your airfield.

2. Find them? Finding them is not the problem you knucklehead they are right there bombing the snot out of me I want to know the "react with decisive results part"

1. Keep a record of airbalance at every Japanese port. When it goes up or down it means enemy CV have arrived or departed. Oh wait I see them they just left Tokyo, They just went by Saipan, They just cleared Truk, Ok they are at Rabaul, still at Rabaul (200 bombers attack Port Moresby) Oh wait it was LBA moving south. Argh KB just appeared 4 hexes south of FIji and is sinking my transports, Argh my CV are closing in on Rabaul to "pounce" argh those bombers that attacked Port Moresby changed to naval attack Japanese must have been tracking air balance (or simply using recon and patrol)




< Message edited by Mogami -- 1/4/2006 3:45:29 PM >


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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 3:45:40 PM   
mogami


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Air balance is like base size info - something that shouldn't be visible to both sides without extensive recon and INTEL. But it is, so it becomes yet another tool to use.



Yes, there is entirely too much intel in the game. Another design mistake.





Hi, I would say from our game that you had to little intell. Or did you simply ignore it?

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/4/2006 4:09:24 PM   
Tristanjohn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Air balance is like base size info - something that shouldn't be visible to both sides without extensive recon and INTEL. But it is, so it becomes yet another tool to use.



Yes, there is entirely too much intel in the game. Another design mistake.





Hi, I would say from our game that you had to little intell. Or did you simply ignore it?


Not sure what you mean, Russ.

If you mean to refer to your over-reaction to the Allied minor affair at Makin and Tarawa, then that had nothing to do with intel but was merely a simple strategem by Allied command to either get you to 1) commit your naval air assets in the Central Pacific at a point where they might be a) easily kept track of, b) were close enough to attrit with land-based air assets, and c) were out of the way of other Allied plans, or 2) cede those islands to the Allied for use as PBY bases. Nothing more, nothing less. Meanwhile, Allied plans elsewhere in the Pacific were (well, actually still are in some other space of time) proceeding apace, and irrespective of your all-consuming attempts to wipe out the pittance of unit cadres resident on Makin/Tarawa and occupy those two sites "at all costs," all is going swimmingly (i.e. according to plan) at COMCINCPAC.

If you meant something else, you've lost me.


< Message edited by Tristanjohn -- 1/5/2006 4:34:30 AM >


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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 2:44:23 AM   
rogueusmc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I would say from our game that you had to little intell. Or did you simply ignore it?
I'm just glad you aren't talking about me...

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 4:19:06 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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If the airbalance really is so important for determining AI actions, why does the auto convoy routine not work at all?

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 6:44:36 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

8. "Madam Zotal" fortune telling machine at carnival.



Huh? You don't have one at home?

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 1:54:56 PM   
Raverdave


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VooDoo and witchcraft. Anyone whom claims to be able to track a CV TF using this "method" is a wanker. After 4600 posts I have never come close to being baned or even warned off, but gee there are some people on this board posting stuff who are really pushing even MY limits.

There is no fcuking way that you can "detect" where a CV TF is moving other than usual ways such as subs or airplanes or coastalwatchers. I have played a LOT of WiTP....so has Mogami and I defy anyone to prove otherwise. Now can we please lock this waste of bandwidth and move onto something of more interest??????

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 3:15:36 PM   
WhoCares


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave
...
There is no fcuking way that you can "detect" where a CV TF is moving other than usual ways such as subs or airplanes or coastalwatchers. I have played a LOT of WiTP....so has Mogami and I defy anyone to prove otherwise. ...

Is it so hard to imagine, that a cautious allied player reroutes some convoys/TFs when he notices asignificant shift of AirBal from Enivetok to Nauru Island, while few other bases around change that much (which might speak for transports/partols/bombers).
No it would most likely not be possible to plot a day-by-day course of KB, neither would it be very reliable with respect to single CVs, but to completly defy such a general possibility?!?!?!

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 3:32:16 PM   
wild_Willie2


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quote:

No it would most likely not be possible to plot a day-by-day course of KB, neither would it be very reliable with respect to single CVs, but to completly defy such a general possibility?!?!?!


Air balance only changes when AC are IN RANGE of a base. It MIGHT BE THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE to get a hint about generall troop movements in a area, but this is 99.9% guesswork. As stated before, even a single fighter/ bomber group moved will already give a great change in the ballance. If you want to risk it all on such a gamble, you are free to do so. I personally will use more conventional methods to find out what is going on arround a base: recon, naval search and sub recon... If your sub near a japanese base is attacked by valls and kates, carriers are arround.... Also sending a sub in a basehex will give you some info about that base most of the time.

Conclusion: AB changes can theoretically tell you something about enemy forces at a base, but this will still be 99.9% of the time pure gueswork.......

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 3:40:03 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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Too much work to bother with! Anyway, the ease with which TFs are sighted by search planes where each aircraft in a squadron can search EVERY HEX (not a pie shaped section) out to its' max range for a full 360% makes this rather moot.

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 6:26:27 PM   
Feinder


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Airbal, is just like any other intel. The more you put into, the more you get out of it. Furthermore, AirBal is not a bug or an exploit. The exact same data is available to both players, if they so choose to do anythign with it.

A good example is Sigint. It's usually just a bunch of coords. If you look at it once a week, it tells you nothing. But if you take the time (and effort) to keep up with it, it's useful.

(* raises "wanker" hand *)

I equate airbal to noise. It's also a lot more "realistic" than many other things in this game. Tampa International is a busy airport, much more so than Trinity Corporate near my home. There's a lot more noise at TIA (both litterally, and more applicably, in air-traffic chatter).

An example, if you're hosting a party, the noise level in the room is fairly static. It might be loud, but it's constant. Maybe Fred with his big mouth shows up at the party. You can tell about where he is, because he's got a bigger mouth than anybody else. Maybe he brings his girlfriend, who also has a big mouth. If they're together, they make so much noise it's hard to tell them apart, but you know where they are. You can tell when the go outside, altho it's impossible to tell exactly where they are outside; but you know they're -not- in the room with you, because it's -not- loud.

You hear a loud crash in the kitchen, so somebody goes in to clean it up. The kitchen stays louder for a while. You don't necessarily know what dropped, or who specifically is in the kitchen. But you can hear the voices talking as long as they're there. Fred & girlfriend enter the kitchen, and now the kitchen is REALLY loud. One of them leaves. You don't know WHO left, but you know the kitchen is a little quieter. But you also know that whoever it was, went outside, because the noise in your room is still "normal".

If you stay at the party all night, you see where people like to stand. One couch is comfortable, another is not. You can tell who likes to play together. You see that nobody likes Fred, so he roams around constantly, increasing the volume of whatever room he's in. His girlfriend is angry, and as been making out with Bill out on the porch since since the crash in the kitchen. Fred discovers his GF with Bill, so he chases Bill with a stapler (Fred is also drunk). You're surprised and don't know what's coming, but it's loud and you have one second to get out of the way.

But if you just walk into the party an look around, all you see is somebody passed out on a couch, a drunk guy waving a stapler at another, and a couple smooching on the porch. You don't know the whole story, and everything almost seems normal.

It's not voo-doo magic. It's an algorithm.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 1/5/2006 6:30:36 PM >


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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 6:32:14 PM   
fabertong


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I've found the best way to find an Enemy carrier force is to Move one of your carrier forces to an enemy base that he knows you're interested in....then you will be met by a much larger enemy force and lose say, four carriers.....I've tested this method in a PBEM with Speedy and can vouch for it.

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 6:37:37 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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We had our own little Midway. Along come's Junyo, Hiyo + CVL's towards Dutch Harbour. I had no knowledge he was coming but I sent up my CV's in 3 TF's (6 in all) and wham bang they find each other near Dutch Harbour (I even had TBF's all stood down since wasn't expecting to meet any bad guys). Net result = Junyo, Shoho and Zuiho are swimming with the fishes.....

A real surprise battle!

What was the 4th carrier that sank?

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 6:38:37 PM   
fabertong


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Not telling.

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 6:42:49 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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I'll find out within 60 days I bet you......

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 6:48:39 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fabertong

I've found the best way to find an Enemy carrier force is to Move one of your carrier forces to an enemy base that he knows you're interested in....then you will be met by a much larger enemy force and lose say, four carriers.....I've tested this method in a PBEM with Speedy and can vouch for it.



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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 6:50:56 PM   
fabertong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: fabertong

I've found the best way to find an Enemy carrier force is to Move one of your carrier forces to an enemy base that he knows you're interested in....then you will be met by a much larger enemy force and lose say, four carriers.....I've tested this method in a PBEM with Speedy and can vouch for it.




You can laugh, Mike, but I still fail to see the funny side.

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 7:05:52 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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I don't

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 7:06:51 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Anyhow. If you accelerate fast enough you get a better class of carrier called the AMAGI....of course i'll have 30 or so of my own beauts by then......

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RE: False CV TF detection: has anyone seen this in play? - 1/5/2006 7:09:19 PM   
fabertong


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I will treasure the Amagi when it comes and keep it in harbour in a far Chinese port............you can't have her.....she is mine.......

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