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Dealing with mines - 1/11/2006 7:00:45 AM   
mickbeau1

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline 		My friend and are playing our first game. I'm playing the Allies he's Japan. It is now June 42 and he is doing well in China and the SRA, but he didn't make a big play in the Pacific, so I still control a reinforced Rabul. So I have a fairly sneaky suspicion that we have both been sewing the pacific with mines and CD units. I don't really have time to play test and play -- so how does one go about doing an amphibious operation against a heavily mined area. Can we use MSWs or will the CD guns just get them?
Post #: 1
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/11/2006 8:01:08 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		The most cautious approach would be

Bomb the crap out of him before doing anything. Set your bombers to Port Attack, they'll be more likely to hit the CD guns that way.

Create a bombardment TF with some of your "DMS" ships (fast destroyer minesweepers). They're fast enought to keep up with your bombardment TFs, but have a terrible range.

Use your bombardment TF (with the DMS, about 4 of them), to bombard the enemy base. Set your TF to "escorts NOT bombard". This will minimize your exposure to both mines and the CD guns. Blow the snot out of him.

Do this for two weeks. Constantly fly recon aircraft. The recons will up your damage on attacks, and keep you appraised of how badly shot up he is.

When you hover the mouse over his base, you'll see the port and AF damage percentages. Rack these numbers up to over 90. Stop for 2 or 3 days. If the numbers decrease (he is repairing), blow the snot out of him again. Rest for 3 days. Check again.

When he gets to the point where you don't see the damage percentage going DOWN, it means he is low or out of supplies. This makes the CD guns and his LCUs all but ineffectual (defend at 25% strength), now it's time to invade.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to mickbeau1)
Post #: 2
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/11/2006 4:28:40 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

My friend and are playing our first game. I'm playing the Allies he's Japan. It is now June 42 and he is doing well in China and the SRA, but he didn't make a big play in the Pacific, so I still control a reinforced Rabul. So I have a fairly sneaky suspicion that we have both been sewing the pacific with mines and CD units. I don't really have time to play test and play -- so how does one go about doing an amphibious operation against a heavily mined area. Can we use MSWs or will the CD guns just get them?


Be aware of my *favourate* code fix in WitP

Mine Sweeping automatically wakes up the CD's who fight back. So combining CD units + mines in a hex makes for some nice defences.

In the old days, you would sail a MSW one hex away and let it clear the mines without any harm coming to it.

When dealing with CD + Mine, you have no choice but to go in heavy with ships to protect the MSW and duel it out with the CD's ... no more cakewalks!

(in reply to mickbeau1)
Post #: 3
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 7:44:37 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Feinders approach is good (in fact very sound) but maybe overly cautious IMHO. I like the idea of the bombardment TF. Go in with BBs and CAs escorted by DMs. This will soften the CDs. Then hit the beaches hard with overwhelming INF and ARM escorted by lots of MSW. You may take a couple of mine hits, but most of your force should make it ashore.

P.S. Don't forget plenty of supplies for that invasion force.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 4
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 9:23:36 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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quote:

You may take a couple of mine hits, but most of your force should make it ashore.


Just make sure you have a port nearby to deal with floatation damage

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Post #: 5
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 9:27:00 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Ah, what's the loss of a few AP/AK? This is war man!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

You may take a couple of mine hits, but most of your force should make it ashore.


Just make sure you have a port nearby to deal with floatation damage


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 6
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 9:33:25 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Ah, what's the loss of a few AP/AK? This is war man!


It ain't the AP/AK that you worry about, it's the BB/CA's in the bombardment group that go glug glug glug ...

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 7
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 9:36:18 PM   
Nick E

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 11/3/2005
Status: offline 		Do 75mm Field Guns work the same way as CD guns against ships?

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 8
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 9:55:59 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		An opponent recently invaded Chandpur, which was protected by CD guns and 600+ mines. His Bombardment TF didn't hit a single mine. His transport TF hit many and he did loose several APs, but he still got the better part of three divisions ashore, they are dinged up pretty good, but mostly intact.

Most CD units have at worst a few 6in guns. This will deter small invasions, but not massive ones.

Like I said, if you have the time for Feinders method that is a good way to go, but brute force also works - unless it is someplace like Singapore or Corrigador.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 9
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 9:59:59 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		600? You're missing a 0, that's all.

(Ted, come get me.)

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Post #: 10
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 10:19:08 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
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From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

600? You're missing a 0, that's all.

(Ted, come get me.)


Probably, but that would be very gamey.

I don't have numbers to back this up, but mines were used much less extensively in WWII than in WWI for several reasons, but one of the biggest was the fact that they kept blowing up there own ships and waters often became unnavigable. My strategy tries to simulate this. Given the way WitP is coded (ships rarely are hit by their own mines) so using thousands of mines at a major port is EXTREMELY gamey.

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 11
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 10:57:28 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Yeah, I was joking. But, I often will plant 12-1500 in a base that I deem particularly important. Most of my mining is using my minelaying subs to harass the nasty Capitalists. They carry some 100 mines. Most of my minelayers spend most of their time in port. I send them out periodically to replenish mines in the ports I want to defend. I think Japanese MLs are rather vulnerable so they don't go too close to the front.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 12
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 11:33:07 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		It would be interesting to see some historical numbers for mines. I'm curious how many were typically used around a port.

I rarely play as the Japanese although I am starting a game against the AI. It seems to me that the Japanese have a lot of MLs and that they make decent gunboats and escorts for supply TF.

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 13
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 11:37:41 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Yeah, some (a few) have decent AA and a couple carry depth charges. I rarely use them in that capacity, simply because they're so fragile. Also, many have really short legs.

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Post #: 14
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 11:48:07 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:



Do 75mm Field Guns work the same way as CD guns against ships?



Search the threads for this one. Someone asked this question a couple months back.

DOn't quote me, but I think the answer is this: NO

There seem to be 3 types of guns.
1. CD - Fire mostly at ships, don't know that they work otherwise
2. DP (dual purpose) These can be used on either ships or INF
3. Field Guns, mortars, howitzers. They are anti-personnel only. They won't hit ships, but they can blast the heck out of a beach landing.

In the defense of Canton, I had a Field Artillery unit, a USMC defence batalion and a large base force stop an moderate sized invasion dead in its tracks. THey blasted them to pieces on the beaches.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 1/12/2006 11:50:49 PM >

(in reply to Nick E)
Post #: 15
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/12/2006 11:50:51 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I remember reading in a thread (don't ask me which one) that some people use US 155 mm howitzers as CD guns. They may have been in a CD unit but I seem to think they were in infantry divisions.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 16
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 12:47:13 AM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		AFAIK, only guns of the CD type will open fire on bombardment or MSW TFs in the same hex.
But if a transport TF is landing troops, all available guns will fire on the troops and ships and may hit both.

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 17
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 1:58:40 AM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		With 6-7k mines one can really really wreak havoc amongst the invasion forces.

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)
Post #: 18
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 3:24:36 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		The name of the gun can be misleading.

The TYPE of gun (in the DB, not the unit it), must be of either type "Naval Gun" or "DP". The 155mm Field gun has a type of "Naval Gun". However, the 75mm Field gun is of type "Army Gun". The 75mm Field gun will not fire at ships, however it will fire at the men as they unload.

The 155mm Field Gun (as a anti-ship gun) is quite accurate, I assure you. My grandfather was assigned to a 155mm battery of the 4th USMC Def Btn that landed at Guadalcanal, and yes, their guns were quite capable of blowing the snot out of the many DDs that ran by.

Frankly, I don't think that the "army guns" should be excluded from firing at ships. They have range/accuracy/penetraion/effect ratings after all. And I'm sure there were plenty of guys that fired 75mm howitzers (also type "army guns" at enemy vessels). However, from my testing, "army guns" will not fire at enemy ships (again, they do get a round of bombardment as artillery vs. the landing troops tho).

So folks have said that thier 75mm field guns will fire at ships. I do not discount this. It is possible that I simply got different resutls. But basically what I did to test was to create a battery of 100x of the same gun (multiple tests with different guns of differnt types), and send in a bunch of ships to bombard and another TF to invade. My testing showed army guns did not fire vs. the ships. But who knows.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to String)
Post #: 19
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 4:17:35 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

It would be interesting to see some historical numbers for mines. I'm curious how many were typically used around a port.

I rarely play as the Japanese although I am starting a game against the AI. It seems to me that the Japanese have a lot of MLs and that they make decent gunboats and escorts for supply TF.

Morrison reports in his Naval Operations history that two MLs laid over a 1000 mines in one evening. Large mine fields are not gamey.

_____________________________

quote:

Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"

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Post #: 20
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 6:47:52 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Quick clarification, here I am talking about the device (weapon) type. Not the LCU type. But what types of weapons can attack what...



Naval Guns = attack Inf and Ships. Most CD guns (and guns on ships) are of type "naval gun".

DP Guns = attack Inf, Ships, and aircraft. Many 5" guns on ships are like this. Some of the 70mm - 90mm AAA are like this.

AAA Guns = attact aircraft, -might- attack ships and infantry. I believe they do, but I haven't tested it. But by observation, it appears that AAA type weapons (again, I'm not talking about the LCU type), will also attack ships and troops.

Infantry Guns = attack Inf only. These are what most of the artillery pieces are in Inf and Art units.


How do you know if that 88mm AAA gun is of type DP or AAA? To be sure, you really have to look it up in the DB editor.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 21
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 6:47:41 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: String

With 6-7k mines one can really really wreak havoc amongst the invasion forces.

With 6-7k mines i would just park my invasion fleet of the coast and let my troops use the mines as stepping stones to the coast. It's about as realistic.

(in reply to String)
Post #: 22
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 6:53:26 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

It would be interesting to see some historical numbers for mines. I'm curious how many were typically used around a port.

I rarely play as the Japanese although I am starting a game against the AI. It seems to me that the Japanese have a lot of MLs and that they make decent gunboats and escorts for supply TF.

Morrison reports in his Naval Operations history that two MLs laid over a 1000 mines in one evening. Large mine fields are not gamey.


Yes, but did they lay more than 1,000 mines? Was this an active port of theirs, i.e. did they have a lot of their own ships moving back and forth through a mined harbor? How often did this happen?

I'm not trying to be critical. I'd really like to know. My limited historical knowledge indicates that this is really rare.

(in reply to Drex)
Post #: 23
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 7:14:18 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		during russo-japenase war both sides put few thousand mines in sth what can be 1 hex in Port Artur
and yes - there were sewere losses on both sides

_____________________________


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RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 7:29:00 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

It would be interesting to see some historical numbers for mines. I'm curious how many were typically used around a port.

I rarely play as the Japanese although I am starting a game against the AI. It seems to me that the Japanese have a lot of MLs and that they make decent gunboats and escorts for supply TF.

Morrison reports in his Naval Operations history that two MLs laid over a 1000 mines in one evening. Large mine fields are not gamey.


Yes, but did they lay more than 1,000 mines? Was this an active port of theirs, i.e. did they have a lot of their own ships moving back and forth through a mined harbor? How often did this happen?

I'm not trying to be critical. I'd really like to know. My limited historical knowledge indicates that this is really rare.



At least in the Atlantic, i think tens of thousands of mines were put into minefields, but they were extensive "barrier" minefields, i.e. - across the English channel, etc.

i haven't yet found how many mines were placed around large ports. But, the mines would probably would have been (a) much more effective and (b) extremely hard to sweep. Many of them were electronically controlled and planted on the bottom, so that paravane sweeping operations would have been pretty ineffective. They were controlled by "galvanic loops" - large loops of wire laid in the harbor bottom would pick up a large chunk of iron or steel moving over them. The mines would be activated and "boom" - the mine would explode under the ship, generally with fatal results.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 25
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 7:31:14 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

during russo-japenase war both sides put few thousand mines in sth what can be 1 hex in Port Artur
and yes - there were sewere losses on both sides


Sounds about right. Diruing the early 1900's mines were used extensively by world powers. The problem was that mines don't tend to stay where they are supposed to and they don't care what ships they blow holes in. They also are tough to deal with after the war is over. For those reasons, most countries dramatically decreased their use of mines by WWII.

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 26
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 7:34:50 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

during russo-japenase war both sides put few thousand mines in sth what can be 1 hex in Port Artur
and yes - there were sewere losses on both sides


Sounds about right. Diruing the early 1900's mines were used extensively by world powers. The problem was that mines don't tend to stay where they are supposed to and they don't care what ships they blow holes in. They also are tough to deal with after the war is over. For those reasons, most countries dramatically decreased their use of mines by WWII.



This may be why they went to electronically controlled "bottom" mines for port defense. They would float off somewhere and kill some friendly transport or something. Of course, WITP doesn't model these...

EDIT: I should add that not ALL mines around major ports were like this. At least one of the IJN subs supporting the PH attack in Dec 1941 ran into a tethered mine. It failed to go off, and the sub dragged off with an entire line of mines (linked by heavy chain). The USN minetender crews were sorely puzzled by the disappearance of these (until after the war, at least, when the IJN records became available).

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/13/2006 7:51:19 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 7:41:12 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

This may be why they went to electronically controlled "bottom" mines for port defense. They would float off somewhere and kill some friendly transport or something. Of course, WITP doesn't model these...


I think maybe WitP does model these mines to a point. Since mines pretty much never damage a friendly ship. Of course, MSW seem to work about as well no matter what, so that part isn't modeled as well.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 28
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 7:47:19 PM   
rtrapasso


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Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

I think maybe WitP does model these mines to a point. Since mines pretty much never damage a friendly ship. Of course, MSW seem to work about as well no matter what, so that part isn't modeled as well.


Well, the part about "never" damaging a friendly is pretty much true (i *think* it might have happened to me once). And the MSW sweeping part is true also. But the NUMBER of mines deployed in this fashion was way lower than in WITP. The one source i read said it would take a small minelayer with shore crew 4 hours to lay 19 mines in this fashion. Of course, the effectiveness of the mines was probably vastly increased also - although i don't think this was ever really severely tested.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 29
RE: Dealing with mines - 1/13/2006 8:08:26 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		This is why I have a general rule of thumb for myself that says 1000 mines or fewer at ports, with 500 being average. That seems to strike a good balancing point for realism. I don't use a house rule about mines because I think there may be justifiable cases where an opponent might really drop 6,000 mines at a port, but I would probably cry foul if every port had thousands of mines also.

All things being equal though, I would rather go up against a whole mess of mines than a well supplied well defended CD fort. In my grand campaign against the AI, I watched the AI impale itself on Corrigador. It was a bloody mess for the AI.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 30
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