Betty Bombers

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Betty Bombers

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Betty Bombers

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:01:11 AM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

I�m having some difficulty in getting successful naval attacks with my Betty�s. I have lost over one hundred planes w/o getting a single hit (on heavy naval units). Is there a preferred altitude for naval attack with this aircraft? Perhaps it should only be used against land targets and/or merchant marine. I�m all ears..

Post #: 1

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:19:43 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

If at normal range, Bettys will attack ships at 200 feet with torpedoes. Altitude assignment doesn't matter. If they are at extended range, they attack with bombs and altitude does matter, the lower the better. However, if its naval vessels being attacked with bombs, its best to stay 10000' or higher even though you will have a reduced chance to hit.

Bettys have low durability and get tore up at low altitudes. Make sure its a target worth hitting.

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 1/18/2006 6:21:20 AM >

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to 06 Maestro)

Post #: 2

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:20:46 AM

rroberson

Posts: 2050
Joined: 5/25/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Betty bombers represent your greatest threat to allied naval shipping in game. I outta know they have cost me quite a few carriers. How do you have them set up? Are you going against hard targets (heavily CAPed carriers) or soft ones...APs bobbing around?

_____________________________

(in reply to 06 Maestro)

Post #: 3

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:37:53 AM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

The target was a carrier battle group. I didn't realize it at the time, but there were 4 CV's with plenty of CA and at least 2 BB. I sent in a good amount of zeros', but couldn't exceed about 2/3rds of the Wildcat CAP. I knew that there would be heavy losses, but I expected to get a good hit or two.
Perhaps it's just a case of too little, too late. The fleet was just sitting there, right in my front yard,

daring me, cursing me;

I had to swat it, but it swat me back.

(in reply to rroberson)

Post #: 4

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:40:53 AM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

The attacks were all within "normal range", so I guess they went in with torpedo attacks. I suppose that the main reason for failure was the lack of adequate fighter cover.

(in reply to 06 Maestro)

Post #: 5

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 8:20:17 AM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

Was The experience high enough? I'd say that to be sure of hitting an allied CV with adequate fighting cover, you need to have your betties at least at 80 exp. With that ratings, even with a small zero cover, you should be able to sneak few of them through the CAP and succesfully attack his CVs...

However, in your case, if nothing else, i'd say bad dice and roll

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to 06 Maestro)

Post #: 6

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 8:30:12 AM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

I would like to post their overal ratings, but I can't because they are no more.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 7

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 8:51:27 AM

Hornblower

Posts: 1361
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
Status: offline

agreed, in early '42 they cost me more ships in the DEI then i can even count.....

(in reply to rroberson)

Post #: 8

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 8:52:48 AM

Bliztk

Posts: 779
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline

4 Carrier TFs, with at least 3xCAs and 2xCL/CLAA per TF, 70% CAP avg pilot exp 77 (now in 80s)

The betties were at normal range, but the Zeroes were at long range, that could explain things

(in reply to 06 Maestro)

Post #: 9

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 9:41:03 AM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

Turn 49 in you mail box. The Betties live! They just landed about 6 big fish into some Ap's headed for PM-the struggle continues. The Betties are fine now.

(in reply to Bliztk)

Post #: 10

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 10:02:41 AM

Bliztk

Posts: 779
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline

Turn into your mailbox, wait until I unleash my "strategic reserve" of 170 heavies

(in reply to 06 Maestro)

Post #: 11

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 10:09:09 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

BliztK said:

quote:

The betties were at normal range, but the Zeroes were at long range, that could explain things

Maestro 06: That's one thing you might want to consider. Set your Bettys to a max range of 8 along with your A6M2 Zeros when going against any target with CAP. That way the Zeros will also be at normal range. You'll have to reduce it if you are using A6M3s.

The best aircraft to us against Allied carriers are Kates. They will get hits assuming you can protect them with a decent escort.

This is an example of what can be done iwith them f you play your cards right. I used land based fighters set to sweep to attrite his CAP first. I lost over 50 land-based fighters but he lost over 40 CAP. In the end he had nothing left overhead of his carriers. Then Hiryu, Soryu and 3 CVLs launched while 3 CVEs provided CAP over my carriers. (The date is mid October 1942).

Day Air attack on TF, near Pomala at 32,69

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 48
D3A Val x 55
B5N Kate x 82

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged
B5N Kate: 8 destroyed, 44 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Hermes, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA Columbo, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Unfortunately, his other two carriers, Enterprise and Indomitable escaped a later attack with only minor damage. Both Illustrious and Wasp sank. Hermes was hit again in a second attack and is now DIW and burning. It did help that I caught him in a base hex, supporting his invasion fleet. That meant he couldn't launch a full strike at me. As it was he did put 2 bombs on Hiryu for 24 sys dam but that was it.

I also had around 50 Bettys ready to fly from Kendari. Unfortunately, my opponent saw that I had just moved them in and countered with heavy bombers from Koepang. I lost 31 Bettys or his ships would have been hurt a lot worse.

Chez

_____________________________

(in reply to 06 Maestro)

Post #: 12

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 10:09:18 AM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Turn into your mailbox, wait until I unleash my "strategic reserve" of 170 heavies

I refuse to look.

I;m done for the night

. Maybe the bombers won't be there tomorrow-that's it!; after all, tomorrow is another day!

(in reply to Bliztk)

Post #: 13

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 1:32:53 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

BliztK said:

quote:

The betties were at normal range, but the Zeroes were at long range, that could explain things

Maestro 06: That's one thing you might want to consider. Set your Bettys to a max range of 8 along with your A6M2 Zeros when going against any target with CAP. That way the Zeros will also be at normal range. You'll have to reduce it if you are using A6M3s.

The best aircraft to us against Allied carriers are Kates. They will get hits assuming you can protect them with a decent escort.

This is an example of what can be done iwith them f you play your cards right. I used land based fighters set to sweep to attrite his CAP first. I lost over 50 land-based fighters but he lost over 40 CAP. In the end he had nothing left overhead of his carriers. Then Hiryu, Soryu and 3 CVLs launched while 3 CVEs provided CAP over my carriers. (The date is mid October 1942).

Day Air attack on TF, near Pomala at 32,69

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 48
D3A Val x 55
B5N Kate x 82

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged
B5N Kate: 8 destroyed, 44 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Hermes, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA Columbo, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Unfortunately, his other two carriers, Enterprise and Indomitable escaped a later attack with only minor damage. Both Illustrious and Wasp sank. Hermes was hit again in a second attack and is now DIW and burning. It did help that I caught him in a base hex, supporting his invasion fleet. That meant he couldn't launch a full strike at me. As it was he did put 2 bombs on Hiryu for 24 sys dam but that was it.

I also had around 50 Bettys ready to fly from Kendari. Unfortunately, my opponent saw that I had just moved them in and countered with heavy bombers from Koepang. I lost 31 Bettys or his ships would have been hurt a lot worse.

Chez

You set your land based fighters to sweep and they attacked the carrier TF? Never heard of that. I always thought they would only attack an airfield on sweep. Or did you assign them to escort a small number of land based bombers?

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 14

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 3:32:05 PM

Feinder

Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline

Chez,

You said the best accuracy alt is 10,000'. I thought it was 6,000'. Are you sure it's 10k?

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 15

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 3:52:32 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Chez,

You said the best accuracy alt is 10,000'. I thought it was 6,000'. Are you sure it's 10k?

-F-

Bets accuracy is probably at 6000 ft...but if you want to survive flak, fly 10 000 ft..

. Bombers hit well from there too.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 16

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 5:19:16 PM

Big B

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

If at normal range, Bettys will attack ships at 200 feet with torpedoes. Altitude assignment doesn't matter.

Chez

Just a side note here, Bettys (and Sallys) attack with torps at normal range, Great! That's what I have seen in all my games - and they torpedo lots of ships all the time...fine.

But why is it then that equivelant allied bombers have to go through no less than 7 checks to have a chance of carrying 1000lb bombs for anti-shipping? That don't seem right.

Not directed at you Chez..

B

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 17

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:11:42 PM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

In my recent fiasco, the Betties were flying from Rabul and Lae. Lae was beyond any fighter escort, so those came in alone. The Rabul bombers had an escort, but it was on the edge of extended range-and those were the weakest fighter units (would adjust that next time). In this same strike I had 27 vals and 25 Zeros' 3 hexes away which participated in the big strike also-those units also took over 50% loss with out scoring a hit. This was a battle that should not have been fought.

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 18

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:34:30 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

If at normal range, Bettys will attack ships at 200 feet with torpedoes. Altitude assignment doesn't matter.

Chez

Just a side note here, Bettys (and Sallys) attack with torps at normal range, Great! That's what I have seen in all my games - and they torpedo lots of ships all the time...fine.

But why is it then that equivelant allied bombers have to go through no less than 7 checks to have a chance of carrying 1000lb bombs for anti-shipping? That don't seem right.

Not directed at you Chez..

B

Good question but I thought every bomber regardless of nationality did this in an attempt to simulate some sort of production/availability limitation on torps. Are you saying that once again Japan gets some sort of freebie?

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 19

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:56:01 PM

Big B

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

If at normal range, Bettys will attack ships at 200 feet with torpedoes. Altitude assignment doesn't matter.

Chez

Just a side note here, Bettys (and Sallys) attack with torps at normal range, Great! That's what I have seen in all my games - and they torpedo lots of ships all the time...fine.

But why is it then that equivelant allied bombers have to go through no less than 7 checks to have a chance of carrying 1000lb bombs for anti-shipping? That don't seem right.

Not directed at you Chez..

B

Good question but I thought every bomber regardless of nationality did this in an attempt to simulate some sort of production/availability limitation on torps. Are you saying that once again Japan gets some sort of freebie?

In the games I've played - I don't recall ever seeing Bettys or Sallys attack ships with bombs - always it has been torpedos (probably because my oppenent attacks at normal range).

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 20

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:56:40 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

If at normal range, Bettys will attack ships at 200 feet with torpedoes. Altitude assignment doesn't matter.

Chez

Just a side note here, Bettys (and Sallys) attack with torps at normal range, Great! That's what I have seen in all my games - and they torpedo lots of ships all the time...fine.

But why is it then that equivelant allied bombers have to go through no less than 7 checks to have a chance of carrying 1000lb bombs for anti-shipping? That don't seem right.

Not directed at you Chez..

B

Sallies don�t torp!

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 21

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 6:59:40 PM

Big B

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

If at normal range, Bettys will attack ships at 200 feet with torpedoes. Altitude assignment doesn't matter.

Chez

Just a side note here, Bettys (and Sallys) attack with torps at normal range, Great! That's what I have seen in all my games - and they torpedo lots of ships all the time...fine.

But why is it then that equivelant allied bombers have to go through no less than 7 checks to have a chance of carrying 1000lb bombs for anti-shipping? That don't seem right.

Not directed at you Chez..

B

Sallies don�t torp!

Sallys are G3Ms are they not?

EDIT: OOOPS! I STAND CORRECTED - I REFERED G3Ms SALLY INSTEAD OF NELL

< Message edited by Big B -- 1/18/2006 7:02:34 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 22

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 7:05:48 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

In the games I've played - I don't recall ever seeing Bettys or Sallys attack ships with bombs - always it has been torpedos (probably because my oppenent attacks at normal range).

Put Bettys or Nells on a level 3 airfield. They will use only bombs, no torps.

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 23

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 7:09:55 PM

Big B

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

In the games I've played - I don't recall ever seeing Bettys or Sallys attack ships with bombs - always it has been torpedos (probably because my oppenent attacks at normal range).

Put Bettys or Nells on a level 3 airfield. They will use only bombs, no torps.

A level 3 airfield is only fighter strip (though a big fighter strip).
So if I put B-26s on a level 4 airfield or larger (with adequate supply) they will use 1000lbrs for all anti-shipping missions?

< Message edited by Big B -- 1/18/2006 7:11:00 PM >

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 24

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 7:12:47 PM

Speedysteve

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline

Only if they pass the exp/leadership tests too I think.

_____________________________

WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 25

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 7:16:59 PM

Mistmatz

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Chez,

You said the best accuracy alt is 10,000'. I thought it was 6,000'. Are you sure it's 10k?

-F-

I usually go for 7000 because they should be more accurate than on 10000 and I stay out of lots of AA guns as those usually have a range of 6000. Is this assumption wrong or are there any game mechanics that prevent being overly 'smart'?

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 26

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 7:17:29 PM

Big B

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Only if they pass the exp/leadership tests too I think.

Yes - and that is why I pointed out earlier that it seems unfair that G4Ms and G3Ms always attack with torps while allies don't get their big stick.

Maybe the Japanese always pass their exp/leadership die rolls and the allies just don't that often - but if thats the case it seems pretty lame.

(in reply to Speedysteve)

Post #: 27

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 7:28:27 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

Yes - and that is why I pointed out earlier that it seems unfair that G4Ms and G3Ms always attack with torps while allies don't get their big stick.

Hitting a moving target with 1 bomb is tougher then dropping a pattern of bombs and getting a hit. The skill check is for that reason.

Torpedo attacks have their own set of checks coupled with additional "serious" AA penalties.

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 28

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 7:30:49 PM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Only if they pass the exp/leadership tests too I think.

Yes - and that is why I pointed out earlier that it seems unfair that G4Ms and G3Ms always attack with torps while allies don't get their big stick.

Maybe the Japanese always pass their exp/leadership die rolls and the allies just don't that often - but if thats the case it seems pretty lame.

Standard armament for the Betty is a torp. Standard armament for the Allied LBA is 500lbers. The check performed is to allow Allied LBA to use bigger bombs than their standard armament. As far as I know, Japanese planes do not get that bonus. Keep in mind that you get fewer chances to hit with the 1k and 2k bombs. With IJN damage control as it is, a single 500lb bomb hit can be devastating to all but the high armor ships.

_____________________________

"There is no Black or White, only shades of Grey."
"If you aren't a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem."

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 29

RE: Betty Bombers - 1/18/2006 7:32:45 PM

Big B

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Yes - and that is why I pointed out earlier that it seems unfair that G4Ms and G3Ms always attack with torps while allies don't get their big stick.

Hitting a moving target with 1 bomb is tougher then dropping a pattern of bombs and getting a hit. The skill check is for that reason.

Torpedo attacks have their own set of checks coupled with additional "serious" AA penalties.

It's not a question of hitting the target - it's a question of getting to take the ordinance on the mission - so if you DO hit it will be worth while.

Your chances for a hit are another matter, and those Japanese bombers do a fine job of hitting with their ONE torp..

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 30