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Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 4:09:02 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		Is it better to employ escorted convoys or to form tons of ASW TFs and go looking for spotted subs in the main sea lanes?

I have been trying the latter in my current game (up to 3/42) and have bagged 4 US subs and damaged or scared off a bunch of others at the loss of 2AKs and 2PCs. LBA search aircraft spot them and the ASW TFs are sent to attack or at least scare them off.

When I tried escorting convoys it seemed that I would lose an AK or TK before the escorts even got a shot at the sub and often did little damage to the sub. Figured I would have better luck going looking for trouble.

Has anyone else tried offensive ASW as an alternative to convoys?

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 4:53:08 AM   
Drex

 

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From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Yes. In one of my games, as Japanese in 6/43, my opponent has parked his subs along the coast of Japan with impunity. I have formed 10 or more ASW TFs of 6 ships each and have them take station along the coast also. I alsos have 100+ bombers on naval search or asw patrol. None are that effective. Air naval search seems a little better. MSWs with an asw rating of 1 are useless and keep getting torped by their adverssaries. The APDs have the best ASW rating I beleive but I only have enough for one TF. I don't believe there is any good ssolution for the Japanese. Allied ASw patrols can unload scores of DCs and will score significant hits. Japanese will score mopstly near misses. If your opponent moves his subs severy turn he can lasst probably forever.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 4:53:12 AM   
Mynok


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Yes. That's all I do. While I do put some PC/PG ships with large TF's, my general tactic is to have 6 ship ASW task forces with FP on ASW or Naval search (below 5000'). When a sub is spotted, I immediately send the ASW TF to the hex on Patrol/Do not retire to the hex. I've had excellent success at killing sub with this. I currently have killed over 20 subs.

My ASW TF are one experienced DD (Shiratsyu or Asashio mostly) with mostly PC's (never more than 6 total) with a very aggressive TF commander. I also use 2 PG/4 PC combos with a very aggressive TF commander. In deep water, I get a lot of not found results, but when attacks are made, the sub is invariably hit and often destroyed.

The FP search patrols are key, because they find the subs. I don't get many sub attacks with aircraft and no sinkings by such so far, but they do find the subs for my ASW attacks.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 4:55:03 AM   
Drex

 

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Status: offline 		My "yes" meant the escorted convoys are better. I can get my TFs through the sub screens by using ASW patrols as escorts of each Supply TF.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 10:11:46 PM   
RUPD3658


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Status: offline 		A side effect of this tactic is that it will raise the experience levels of some of the ships to a point that they will attack on their own. One EXP 50+ ship will get the others in the TF to attack and raise their EXP. Below 50 I don't think that they will initiate an attack.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 11:32:01 PM   
tsimmonds


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Status: offline 		In my experience it is very important to include some ASW assets (normally PC/PG) in each convoy TF whose cargo you care about. They will often find and attack submarines before they have a chance to attack the transports. How often this occurs depends mainly on the crew's experience and perhaps on the ship leader's aggressiveness.

I also believe very strongly in creating small ASW (4 units, normally DD/APD) TFs set to follow these high-value convoys. These will very often find submarines and attack them, pre-empting many attacks on the transports.

The third crucial layer of ASW defense for your convoy lanes is solid coverage of LBA set to naval search at 6000'. I will use extended range if needed, but try to use just normal range to keep down attrition. The a/c increase the detection level of the subs, making it more likely the surface ASW forces will find and attack them. Plus, occasionally they do carry out attacks, which cause the subs to burn fuel and sometimes score hits.

Note that hardly any of these attacks ever result in sunk subs. The main point is to pre-empt their attacks, cause them damage, reduce their ability to remain on station, and to gain experience for the ASW units so they have a fighting chance later when the subs get really vicious.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 1/20/2006 5:22:18 PM >

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 11:38:17 PM   
Mike Solli


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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I'm just as happy with a damaged Allied SS. It's a long cruise from my convoy routes to an Allied port. The sub is out of commission for a good period of time to repair. I'll take that.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 11:45:40 PM   
RUPD3658


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Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		Of course sinking the ones in Manila on 12-07-1941 makes this a lot easier.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/19/2006 11:58:25 PM   
doktorblood


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Status: offline 		I think a little bit of everything works best. I escort important convoys with PCs or small DDs when available and use most of the Jap floatplanes for spotting subs.

For sub infested areas I bring in some IJAAF sub-buster airgroups(all 90+ aircrew) that I have built up for sole ASW use and ASW TFs. For ASW TFs I like to use 1 DD with a good skipper along with 3 or 4 W7 class MSW(the 20 speed ones with type 95 DCs). Make sure the DDs have type 95 or type 2 DCs. Ships with type 91 DCs might keep the subs down, but hits will be rare unless in shallow waters.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 12:11:01 AM   
Mynok


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The MSW make better convoy escorts IMO. They solve two issues there, while on ASW patrol, they are generally only doing one thing.

PC's have 95's too. They are excellent at this job, and gain experience pretty fast.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 12:37:25 AM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

For sub infested areas I bring in some IJAAF sub-buster airgroups(all 90+ aircrew) that I have built up for sole ASW use and ASW TFs.


What type of plane do you like to use? Also, what maximum range do you use for the unit?

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Post #: 11
RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 4:00:21 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

Is it better to employ escorted convoys or to form tons of ASW TFs and go looking for spotted subs in the main sea lanes?


I do both. I use ships with an ASW of at least 2 for escorting and hunter killer groups with each ship having an ASW rating of at least 3. I also like to put at least one APD with the hunter killers. And when there is a sub that absolutely, positively must die, I use 5-6 APDs to hunt it down. Unfortunately, I need the APDs for fast transport on occasion so they aren't always available.

Chez

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Post #: 12
RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 6:10:54 AM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

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Status: offline 		One big thing is by having at least one ASW ship in a transport tskforce you force the sub to attack submerged. A sub that attacks on the surface is much more accurate. I try to put 1 or 2 ASW equiped ships in a tf and have some 4 - 6 ship ASW taskforces patroling, following transports, etc.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 12:38:21 PM   
doktorblood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

For sub infested areas I bring in some IJAAF sub-buster airgroups(all 90+ aircrew) that I have built up for sole ASW use and ASW TFs.


What type of plane do you like to use? Also, what maximum range do you use for the unit?


I've been using Ki-30 Ann and Ki-48 Lilly. I like Ann because it has dive-bomber accuracy, carries 4 bombs and can operate from smaller bases. I like Lilly because it carries 8 bombs. I like to divide the groups and have part flying Naval Search and part flying ASW, all at max range... I seem to get more attacks that way.

In my current game I have 2 Sentai + 2 Chutai of Ki-30 and 1 Sentai of Ki-48 as dedicated ASW airgroups ... all have every pilot at 90 exp or better. I've been thinkig about switching a group to Sally to get a bit more range and bigger bombs.

I also have a Val group built up to 94 exp and another training up that I could use if I have to, but I like to keep them in reserve to replace carrier losses.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 3:41:31 PM   
pauk


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From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline 		previous posters said almost everything.


I do create ASW naval TF in the three class (usualy no more than 6 ships):

1. "Elite" ASW TFs (often 2 TF including DDs and APDs)
2. Regular ASW (one DD with aggressive commander and PCs and PGs)
3. Aux ASW (AVs with search planes and PCs/PGs - their main mission is to locate enemy subs which threaten my oil/resource conwoys...

This was worked well before 1.6 - to be honest it worked too good and tweaking naval ASW was the good decision. However, it seems that devs tweaked it too much, now i very rarely detect enemy subs with my naval ASW (even if three ASW TFs are located in the same, shallow water hex)

Air ASW is only way to deal with enemy subs especially when they evacuating cadres from PI/DEI. You have to train bomber groups to +80 exp and they will decimate enemy subs very fast. (Just ask Andy and String:). Sallys and Lilys are good choice for that. (actually, all bombers with 80+ exp pilots would perform good)

Again, IMO Air ASW is too efficient (and it's need tweaking too) but i'm afraid that in 1.8 patch will be practicaly impossible to sink enemy sub.

That's my experience, and my impressions can be wrong, but that's what i saw in my 1.6 games.



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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 4:09:17 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		ASW groups are essential, otherwise your Allied opponent will take the path of least resistance and camp his subs right off your ports and choke points. Keep him honest and make him hunt you out in the shipping lanes.


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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 9:15:42 PM   
msaario

 

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From: Back in E U R O P A
Status: offline 		Ok, here is my deal vs the AI and sinking practically everything that is submerged (Dec 1944). Every bomber and recon (except many of the Betties) are in Japan or the nearby islands, either on ASW or naval search. Well there are now a few thousand (?) of these planes around (and I think most subs die from bombs i.e. plane attacks anyhow). Most DDs - maybe 60-70% - are doing ASW from Kagoshima , Tokyo or whichever port has fuel. Some DDs are running either with the tanker TFs (carrying 100.000+ fuel, or ferrying my trained pilots from China to the front) and a few covering my CVs which are comfortably sleeping in Rabaul. Anyhow, many PCs, MSWs and PGs are also doing their own ASWs sweeps. It took a long time to start this "train" but basically none of the Allied subs get through, and new ones appear almost daily. I think it boils down to EXP anyhow, I got frustrated for not achieving much with multitudes of ASWs but now these guys are lethal - after years of burning valuable fuel.

Typically the SS takes a beating from ASW and then bites the dust after a plane strike.

--Mikko

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/20/2006 9:18:37 PM   
msaario

 

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Status: offline 		Oh I don't mix 30+ knot DDs with 16/20 knot dinghies(?), remember as in air-to-air, speed is everything. 30+ DD TF can run through the path of the SS and then catch up on the way back. That's two chances to strike.

--Mikko

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/21/2006 12:11:56 PM   
Charles2222


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Status: offline 		I don't think anyone has ever seen an increase in killings due to increased speed of the ships. I did a very limited test on my own many versions ago, adn I saw not the slightest difference. It was a lovely theory a bunch of people had and nothing more. I'm guessing on this one, but I think it's also true that the speed of the sub for detection purposes doesn't matter either. Some had thought that with a full speed the sub would be harder to catch, but on the other hand it would be easier to detect. I suppose the same would go the other way around, where the DD is easier detected with higher speeds (but harder to catch or hit) and with the increased noise will be pretty blind in detecting subs, if even it would bother at all with detecting when going full speed.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/21/2006 12:50:46 PM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		The key to effective Japanese ASW is air patrol. Just detecting a sub forces it to expend ops points and fuel - usually it also increases its systems damage. It does not seem obvious ( and it should not ) but subs left on station a long time have little chance of making it home. Now the idea of ASW hunter killer groups is also good, but not in the way we usually think of. I prefer to lose some junk to a valuable ship and cargo, so I like it when they 'waste" torpedoes on the junk! Also, in combination with air reports, ASW attacks can be effective. You need to consider lots of things - including the experience of the naval unit and the rating of its commander - the actual weapons load (some ships have 120 depth charges - these are more effective than those with only 4 - etc.)

Still, major ASW weapons for Japan are at present missing. I am going to add them to RHS. Japan has ASW shells for a variety of guns, ASW omrtars, ASW rocket projectors, and detection systems including MAD. [I thought Japan INVENTED MAD - but it appears some Allied units also had it - although they didn't use it on ships. It may be an independent invention by both sides - but Japan put it out in numbers. Old Kates and Ki-49s had it as well as the purpose built Q1W1, in aircraft terms.] Radar also should help you sub hunters.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/21/2006 1:23:42 PM   
Black Mamba 1942


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Status: offline 		Cid, do you plan to include air search radar for the US subs as part of their upgrade path?
Or is that someone elses baby.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/21/2006 2:05:54 PM   
Ramjet

 

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From: Charleston, SC. USA
Status: offline 		Sally's at 1000 feet are very deadly! I am only at the end of May 1942 and I have already sunk 13 Subs with 250kg bombs from Sally's. You have to get the experience to at least 80, but after that, they can really guard choke points.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/21/2006 4:25:38 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramjet

Sally's at 1000 feet are very deadly! I am only at the end of May 1942 and I have already sunk 13 Subs with 250kg bombs from Sally's. You have to get the experience to at least 80, but after that, they can really guard choke points.


Sally's are not deadly, the air asw model is. The design treats subs like surface ships!


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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/22/2006 1:32:55 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Cid, do you plan to include air search radar for the US subs as part of their upgrade path?
Or is that someone elses baby


I just checked: US Subs had radar even in stock. Certainly they all have it is CHS. And they all will have it in RHS. The change is that Andrew is considering adding it to Japanese subs for CHS. He asked me to do that - but I went too far - and added snorkels too. Even though HE made the snorkels he isn't happy about that! But wether or not they make it into CHS next release, I will of course put them in RHS. Looks like I may finish first - which was not my plan - but CHS is delayed - and so I am going to whip out the first pass RHS as soon as I can finish the self assigned tasks. I am going to fix errors in the databases for devices, aircraft and ships. I have already fixed errors in Japanese air forces. I will add a few economic things, and create a first pass set of supply sinks to suck up inappropriate supply. [I will not do an exhaustive study point by point until it is clear the sinks work as intended]. I am done with devices and almost done with aircraft. I will do ships next - and a bit of testing. Then the sinks.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/22/2006 1:38:22 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Sally's are not deadly, the air asw model is. The design treats subs like surface ships!


Yeah- but the game won't let us outfit Ki-49s and B5Ns with MAD booms and get the real effective historical sub hunters either. And remember, WWII era subs WITHOUT periscopes DID travel on the surface - their range was only 90 miles at 3 knots submerged on batteries! Submarines were in effect submersable surface raiders - and they also were unable to spot targets when not surfaced in the days before radar. The chances of seeing a target when submerged were less than 10% of the chance when surfaced. Subs had to surface at night to recharge batteries. The only exceptions at all were not Americans - they were late war Axis boats with snorkels - or a few Dutch subs. The model isn't that bad - chances of finding a sub on the surface were very good unless it had radar warning - and the model actually allows for that.

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RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/22/2006 1:59:32 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Mamba 1942

Cid, do you plan to include air search radar for the US subs as part of their upgrade path?
Or is that someone elses baby.


Some air search radar has been added to the Allied subs, where appropriate, for the next release of CHS (which has been delayed quite a lot, unfortunately). Some Japanese subs may get it as well where appropriate. And snorkels are being added where appropriate as well - to a few Dutch subs at least. The current radar on US subs is surface search radar, not air search radar.

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Post #: 26
RE: Best Use of Japanese ASW - 1/22/2006 4:38:15 PM   
Black Mamba 1942


Posts: 510
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Status: offline 		That's what I thought.
No air search radar was added to the subs.

I was hoping by including them it would reduce the numerous air sightings.

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Post #: 27
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