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Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 1:45:23 AM

Greyshaft

Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
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Is it possible to use a key combination which will display the defensive strength for each hex? It would take into account all terrain except rivers. That way a player could look up and down the line and get an idea of where the best attacks could be made. Quite useful on the Russian Front methinks both in the attacking and defending roles.

Apologies if this has been discussed before.

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

Post #: 1

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 2:09:16 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Is it possible to use a key combination which will display the defensive strength for each hex? It would take into account all terrain except rivers. That way a player could look up and down the line and get an idea of where the best attacks could be made. Quite useful on the Russian Front methinks both in the attacking and defending roles.

Apologies if this has been discussed before.

A good idea. I do not know what CWIF offered to the player in this regard.

As always, I like to push these things a little farther - unitil they break under the weight of my additions. Then I back them off one iteration.

As a player planning an attack (or defense) I would like to know whether the assault table is required. If not, then I would like to know how much armor is in the hex. Someting about the affect on ground strikes and ground support too?

Perhaps a toggle that would remove all the units from view and replace them with a couple of numbers or 3?

Say,
15 - M for 15 strength points and assault table mandatory.
15 - 1.5 for 15 strength points and 1.5 armor factors.

I haven't thought about this in any detail. Why don't you guys kick it around for a while.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 2

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 2:48:33 AM

Greyshaft

Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

I don't think the units should disappear since they function as a reference point for the players on the map. "Aha... that stack with the 6-5 armor only has a defence of eight. That's much weaker than the other units around him!"

Not sure if knowing the armor factors is a big deal. I'm only looking for the view from 30,000 feet to understand the weak points in a defence line.

Others may feel differently.

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 3

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 3:53:22 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

I don't think the units should disappear since they function as a reference point for the players on the map. "Aha... that stack with the 6-5 armor only has a defence of eight. That's much weaker than the other units around him!"

Not sure if knowing the armor factors is a big deal. I'm only looking for the view from 30,000 feet to understand the weak points in a defence line.

Others may feel differently.

Taking your example, the numbers would be 8 - 1. A single armor unit in a hex with 8 strength points.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 4

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 5:16:46 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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What about if the non-phasing player's units disappear? Then one could see one's own stacks and the weak points in the enemy line.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 5

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 6:15:46 AM

lomyrin

Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

In CWiF both the attack and defense strengh of the opponents units are displayed at the lower right on the screen in a table. The data are shown as you move the mouse pointer over the hex.
That information is important but seemingly dealt with already in the CWiF program.

Lars

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 6

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 6:30:04 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

In CWiF both the attack and defense strengh of the opponents units are displayed at the lower right on the screen in a table. The data are shown as you move the mouse pointer over the hex.
That information is important but seemingly dealt with already in the CWiF program.

Lars

Ok.

But I think what Greyshaft was looking for was the ability to just look at the map and see the total strength of each hex.

What CWIF offered was the possibility of moving the cursor over each hex and glancing down at the lower right hand corner of the screen to read a small digit in a group of many digits. Then keeping a mental image of which hexes were weakest along the whole front line.

If the units in each hex were replaced with one or two digits, then with your hands idle, you could simply scan for the hexes with small numbers.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 7

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 7:04:10 AM

Greyshaft

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From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But I think what Greyshaft was looking for was the ability to just look at the map and see the total strength of each hex.

Exactly... just give me the big picture so I can consider where I want to attack... or alternatively, where should I send reinforcements.

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 8

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 11:48:22 AM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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MWiF could show the information in a red circle drawn on top of the units in each hex of the visible map when a given key is pressed.

The information could be the defense value of the units in the hex with the bonus the units give to the attack, in assault & blitz separated with a slash for example.

For example :
A disrupted (5-3) INF with a (7-6) ARM in a clear hex in clear weather could show : 12 (0/0)
A disrupted (7-4) INF with a disrupted (9-6) ARM in a clear city hex with 1 factory in clear weather could show : 16 (+2/+2)
Two (8-6) MECH units in a clear hex in clear weather could show : 16 (-4/-4)

Or maybe the distinction between blitz & assault hasn't to be made as the bonus are nearly always the same.

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 9

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 12:00:27 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

MWiF could show the information in a red circle drawn on top of the units in each hex of the visible map when a given key is pressed.

The information could be the defense value of the units in the hex with the bonus the units give to the attack, in assault & blitz separated with a slash for example.

For example :
A disrupted (5-3) INF with a (7-6) ARM in a clear hex in clear weather could show : 12 (0/0)
A disrupted (7-4) INF with a disrupted (9-6) ARM in a clear city hex with 1 factory in clear weather could show : 16 (+2/+2)
Two (8-6) MECH units in a clear hex in clear weather could show : 16 (-4/-4)

Or maybe the distinction between blitz & assault hasn't to be made as the bonus are nearly always the same.

I like this. It would be an opaque circle of some obvious color with some numbers inside of it, using a font with high contrast. Toggle it on and off, like the flag, weather, and other stuff. As to the bonus numbers being the same, if they are, only 1 is shown (-4). When they are different, then the (x/y) format would be used.

The floor is still open for other ideas.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 10

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 12:23:08 PM

asgern

Posts: 2
Joined: 1/4/2006
Status: offline

Hello,

I haven't posted anything here before, although I have been following the process of MWIF lately. I am really pleased by the effort Steve is putting into this - by his reports, questions and screenshots, I feel that we are moving closer to a real MWIF game day by day. As I like (and own) the WIF FE paper maps and counters, I am somewhat conservative here: I prefer red numbers on the non-white print SS units etc. But, I am getting used to the new mountains, and I really like the new swamp hexes. I am confident that I will like the graphics of the final product - you seem to be headed firmly in the right direction, Steve, using the original WIF FE look with some computer add-ons, improving game play.

On to my comment regarding unit strength - I like the idea of having stack strenghts shown in the hexes. I would prefer the numbers in all hexes, not just in the non-phasing player's hexes, as you would need the numbers when planning attacks. I like Patrices suggestion, but would prefer that you could switch between 1D10 and 2D10 rules (I never got used to the 2D10 combat rules), or simply display both sets of potential bonuses.

For instance, in a clear hex, a stack with a flipped 7-strenght armor unit and a face-up 6-strength infantry would then have the number 13 (+1) shown in 1D10-mode and 13 (+2) shown in 2D10 mode, or unified as 13 (+1/+2). Colour coding could make this easier to comprehend. You could place this number somewhere in the hex, perhaps on the right or left of the units (like the digits showning the total number of units in a stack).

Keep up the good work!

- Asger

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 11

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 12:34:48 PM

dhatchen

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/23/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

As a player planning an attack (or defense) I would like to know whether the assault table is required. If not, then I would like to know how much armor is in the hex. Someting about the affect on ground strikes and ground support too?

Perhaps a toggle that would remove all the units from view and replace them with a couple of numbers or 3?

Say,
15 - M for 15 strength points and assault table mandatory.
15 - 1.5 for 15 strength points and 1.5 armor factors.

I haven't thought about this in any detail. Why don't you guys kick it around for a while.

How about the hexes show numbers, but display the units on MouseOver. That way the player can move the mouse to a low strength hex and see what he has to contend with. The MouseOver could simply show that hex as it usually looks, or it could popup a window with the units spread out.

The numbers could be in a bold font Blue if the attack would be the attacker's choice (if he brought enough ARM or MECH to the party), in Red if a mandatory Assault, and in Grey if defender's choice.

Showing armour presence is a little more complex. A simple answer would be to just put a small superscript ARM or MECH Nato symbol by the defence strength. The player could use the MouseOver popup to see the actual ARM units.

A more complex answer would be to place the number of ARM/MECH symbols in a vertical stack down the right side of the strength number that correspond to the number of Corps equivalents. Stacking would limit this to a maximum of two and a half symbols since MWiF uses WiF European Map stacking throughout the world. MECH would not be shown when ARM is present, as ARM takes precedence.

My personal preference would be just one symbol to show ARM/MECH presence. One can then place a blue? NATO air unit symbol or graphic below the ARM/MECH to show halved air factors due to terrain or weather and red? for no fly hexes. A third symbol below this could show halved attack factors. I don't personally favour this last, as the player "should" know which these are from the terrain but, hey, I miss these once in a while too.

The benefit of this system is that you get Greyshaft's "30,000 feet" view at a glance with all of the information discussed and the player does not have a lot of numbers in each hex to look at and remember the meaning of.

danh

< Message edited by dhatchen -- 1/20/2006 12:37:10 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 12

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 3:51:23 PM

hakon

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline

I don think displaying defensive strength will help me very much, as the final odds will depend as much on possible bonuses and who has the choice of CRT, as on actual factors. (Particularily when using 2d10).

I think a more usefull view, would be to display maximum possible odds for an attack against each enemy hex, taking into account which units are in range of attacking that hex, but not taking into account HQ support or ground support before they are declared, or ground strikes (before they are performed).

This should read something like +8/+14 where the first number is the bonus on the assault table and the second is the bonus available on the blitz table. (When using the 1d10 table, this could read 4:1/4:1+3.) The numbers hould be color coded, ie green when the attacker has the choice of table and red when the defender can choose table. If choosing table reduces the odds, it could have both printed, ie +6/+12 (green) and +8/+14 (red).

When moving the mouse over any of the numbers in the hex, the units that are required to make that odds should be highlighted. During land movement, clicking on the number should enable a context menu where the user can tell the computer to set up for this attack automatically.

The view should be updated whenever activated, and units that have already moved should be taken out of the calculation, so that one can quickly see if there is another possible attack after the first one has been set up.

The view I describe is a bit more work to code than simply displaying the factors, but should save a lot of manual counting of factors, and something simmilar is probably neccessary anyway, to support the AI.

(in reply to dhatchen)

Post #: 13

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 5:03:33 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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The Decisive Battles game system (SSG -- Battles in Italy, Battles in Normandy, Korsun Pocket, Last Blitzkrieg) has this kind of feature.
It is called something like the battle assistant, I don't remember exactly.
It shows you the maximum odds you could achieve on each and every enemy hex, and for each, it show you which friendly units would be necessary to achieve those odds. If you move units and then ask again the battle assistant, it shows you the updated maximum odds you could achieve.
It is very very powerful, and very very useful.
Moreover, the odds are shown with colors indicating a graduation of the power of the attack. The more powerful, the more red the number is IIRC.

(in reply to hakon)

Post #: 14

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 6:10:15 PM

hakon

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Joined: 4/15/2005
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On the topic of views, three other views would be nice, too.

1. Supply view: This view should display every hex with a secondary supply source in red. All hexes that are in supply in any weather should be green, while hexes that are only in supply in good weather should be yellow. Units currently out of supply, should be color-tagged.

This view would be nice to use at the end of land movement, to make sure all/most units remain in supply even if the weather changes.

2. Air superiority view. All friendly fighters should be displayed in purple and enemy fighters in red. Hexes within interception range of your fighters should be blue, while hexes within interception range of enemy fighters should be in red. Hexes reachable by both sides should have color coding according to the relative airial control of the hex. Both the maximum air-to-air strength possible for a side, as well as the number of fighters within reach is relevant, and the numbers should be printed. For instance, if the enemy has 2 fighters with maximum air to air strength of 9 and you have 4 fighters with maximum air to air strength of 8, this could read 4(8) / 2/(9).

It should be possible to modify the view, so that escort range is used instead of interception range, for any or both sides. A night version should also be available, if night missions are allowed. If maximum strength in a hex can only be peformed using red-print fighters, there should be some kind of color coding to represent this too. (Such as when the 1943 He219 is Germany's highest value fighter in 1943).

I would use this view offensively to find good places to bomb, or defensively to set up a fighter defence.

Btw, this view should probably show factory stacks/oil resources that have not been bombed in addition to the other info.

3. Naval superiority

Simmilar to airial, should give an indication of how much strength you and the enemy can project into each sea zone. The exact design of this should be simmilar to the way the AI is designed to evaluate sea zones, if possible. Some color coding would be nice, so that you can immidialtely see what sea zones need to be defended.

For england, in particular, it would be nice to have some way to quckly determine what sea zones germany can reach with subs.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 15

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 6:27:22 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: asgern

Hello,

I haven't posted anything here before, although I have been following the process of MWIF lately. I am really pleased by the effort Steve is putting into this - by his reports, questions and screenshots, I feel that we are moving closer to a real MWIF game day by day. As I like (and own) the WIF FE paper maps and counters, I am somewhat conservative here: I prefer red numbers on the non-white print SS units etc. But, I am getting used to the new mountains, and I really like the new swamp hexes. I am confident that I will like the graphics of the final product - you seem to be headed firmly in the right direction, Steve, using the original WIF FE look with some computer add-ons, improving game play.

On to my comment regarding unit strength - I like the idea of having stack strenghts shown in the hexes. I would prefer the numbers in all hexes, not just in the non-phasing player's hexes, as you would need the numbers when planning attacks. I like Patrices suggestion, but would prefer that you could switch between 1D10 and 2D10 rules (I never got used to the 2D10 combat rules), or simply display both sets of potential bonuses.

For instance, in a clear hex, a stack with a flipped 7-strenght armor unit and a face-up 6-strength infantry would then have the number 13 (+1) shown in 1D10-mode and 13 (+2) shown in 2D10 mode, or unified as 13 (+1/+2). Colour coding could make this easier to comprehend. You could place this number somewhere in the hex, perhaps on the right or left of the units (like the digits showning the total number of units in a stack).

Keep up the good work!

- Asger

And hello to you too.

The 1D10 versus 2D10 is not a problem. The player will have set the option one way or the other when he started the game and that setting can be used to decide how to perform the calculation for this display.

Displaying these numbers has to be controlled by a toggle switch - there is no room for them to be permanently shown. They also have no role at times during the game (strategic bombing, production, reorganizing, etc.).

How to do something comparable for the naval units hasn't been discussed either. Ideas?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to asgern)

Post #: 16

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 6:45:49 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhatchen
How about the hexes show numbers, but display the units on MouseOver. That way the player can move the mouse to a low strength hex and see what he has to contend with. The MouseOver could simply show that hex as it usually looks, or it could popup a window with the units spread out.

The numbers could be in a bold font Blue if the attack would be the attacker's choice (if he brought enough ARM or MECH to the party), in Red if a mandatory Assault, and in Grey if defender's choice.

Showing armour presence is a little more complex. A simple answer would be to just put a small superscript ARM or MECH Nato symbol by the defence strength. The player could use the MouseOver popup to see the actual ARM units.

A more complex answer would be to place the number of ARM/MECH symbols in a vertical stack down the right side of the strength number that correspond to the number of Corps equivalents. Stacking would limit this to a maximum of two and a half symbols since MWiF uses WiF European Map stacking throughout the world. MECH would not be shown when ARM is present, as ARM takes precedence.

My personal preference would be just one symbol to show ARM/MECH presence. One can then place a blue? NATO air unit symbol or graphic below the ARM/MECH to show halved air factors due to terrain or weather and red? for no fly hexes. A third symbol below this could show halved attack factors. I don't personally favour this last, as the player "should" know which these are from the terrain but, hey, I miss these once in a while too.

The benefit of this system is that you get Greyshaft's "30,000 feet" view at a glance with all of the information discussed and the player does not have a lot of numbers in each hex to look at and remember the meaning of.

danh

My oh my.

I did ask, didn't I?

1 - unit details
2 - choice of combat table
3 - armor factors
4 - armor details
5 - air factor effects due to terrain
7 - air factor effects due to weather

What to show. Summary versus details. When to show it. How to show it. Player controls for these displays.

Something to mull over.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to dhatchen)

Post #: 17

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 7:07:19 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

I don think displaying defensive strength will help me very much, as the final odds will depend as much on possible bonuses and who has the choice of CRT, as on actual factors. (Particularily when using 2d10).

I think a more usefull view, would be to display maximum possible odds for an attack against each enemy hex, taking into account which units are in range of attacking that hex, but not taking into account HQ support or ground support before they are declared, or ground strikes (before they are performed).

This should read something like +8/+14 where the first number is the bonus on the assault table and the second is the bonus available on the blitz table. (When using the 1d10 table, this could read 4:1/4:1+3.) The numbers hould be color coded, ie green when the attacker has the choice of table and red when the defender can choose table. If choosing table reduces the odds, it could have both printed, ie +6/+12 (green) and +8/+14 (red).

When moving the mouse over any of the numbers in the hex, the units that are required to make that odds should be highlighted. During land movement, clicking on the number should enable a context menu where the user can tell the computer to set up for this attack automatically.

The view should be updated whenever activated, and units that have already moved should be taken out of the calculation, so that one can quickly see if there is another possible attack after the first one has been set up.

The view I describe is a bit more work to code than simply displaying the factors, but should save a lot of manual counting of factors, and something simmilar is probably neccessary anyway, to support the AI.

This level of player assistance I categorize as AIA (AI Assistant). I undestand the desire for this. And Patrice's post immediately after yours makes the case equally well.

As a player, I am somewhat outraged by the whole concept though. If I were playing a game of chess against you and you used a chess program to tell you that I hung a piece (left it vulnerable for capture) or that a forced mate in 3 was possible by just making the following moves, ... Who would I actually be playing against?

The distinction I see between these two is presenting information versus providing advice. Calculating the defense strength of a hex performs a straigtforward math calculation. Telling the player which units to move where in order to achieve the maximum odds is very close to playing the game on behalf of the player.

Yes, they are just more calculations, but why not automate it so the player can just say: "Attack hex A. Recalculate. Attack hex B. Recalculate. Prepare to attack hex C next impulse. Recalculate. ...". The game could be played that way. Would it be WIF? Would you even need to know any of the combat strengths of your units? Or their movement abilities? Or that armor factors are part of the rules? Those would just be messy details that the AIA deals with.

The AIO will work all this out for its moves, so the underlying math and numbers will be in place. Presentation to the player of the information and modifications to the interface to support this style of play would be some additional work.

But I am more concerned with what the final product is. It seems to drift a bit too close to an RTS style of game (without the time constraints): "Attack there! Do it again!"

Information versus advice versus automated movement and attacks .

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)

Post #: 18

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 7:24:09 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon
On the topic of views, three other views would be nice, too.

1. Supply view: This view should display every hex with a secondary supply source in red. All hexes that are in supply in any weather should be green, while hexes that are only in supply in good weather should be yellow. Units currently out of supply, should be color-tagged.

This view would be nice to use at the end of land movement, to make sure all/most units remain in supply even if the weather changes.

2. Air superiority view. All friendly fighters should be displayed in purple and enemy fighters in red. Hexes within interception range of your fighters should be blue, while hexes within interception range of enemy fighters should be in red. Hexes reachable by both sides should have color coding according to the relative airial control of the hex. Both the maximum air-to-air strength possible for a side, as well as the number of fighters within reach is relevant, and the numbers should be printed. For instance, if the enemy has 2 fighters with maximum air to air strength of 9 and you have 4 fighters with maximum air to air strength of 8, this could read 4(8) / 2/(9).

It should be possible to modify the view, so that escort range is used instead of interception range, for any or both sides. A night version should also be available, if night missions are allowed. If maximum strength in a hex can only be peformed using red-print fighters, there should be some kind of color coding to represent this too. (Such as when the 1943 He219 is Germany's highest value fighter in 1943).

I would use this view offensively to find good places to bomb, or defensively to set up a fighter defence.

Btw, this view should probably show factory stacks/oil resources that have not been bombed in addition to the other info.

3. Naval superiority

Simmilar to airial, should give an indication of how much strength you and the enemy can project into each sea zone. The exact design of this should be simmilar to the way the AI is designed to evaluate sea zones, if possible. Some color coding would be nice, so that you can immidialtely see what sea zones need to be defended.

For England, in particular, it would be nice to have some way to quckly determine what sea zones germany can reach with subs.

I like all of these ideas. A lot of details need to be worked out of course.

For some reason, the idea of how determining how much naval strength can be projected into each sea area (as a player aid) doesn't bother me. Logically, I think it should. I guess it is that there are always large stacks of naval units and their physical locations on the map can be quite far away from each other (a hundred hexes or more). Requiring the player to manually examine the entire map to find all the naval units that can reach a sea area in the middle of the Pacific - that just seems stupid.

Maybe the distinction is projected strength.

Air units have a projected strength too. Both the fighters and the bombers.

The supply situation also has an element of projection to it. It emanates from sources out into an area of the map.

I believe providing this kind of information to the player is a good thing. Coordinating attacks - not so much.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)

Post #: 19

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 8:23:38 PM

Cheesehead

Posts: 418
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Appleton, Wisconsin
Status: offline

I just hope the map and units don't get cluttered with a bunch of numbers. IMO WiF is a work of art as well as a game...some of these suggestions are nice features to add, but I would hope that they could all be toggled off. I think the odds calculations is definitely too much. I first saw this with Korsun Pocket and it made the game too easy. Some of us enjoy and take pride in crunching numbers and having to scan the battlefield for that last air factor to make a 4-1 attack possible.

Another thing to consider about all this: When advertising the game by posting screenshots, a map and units full of numbers and symbols may turn away more potential customers than it will attract if it looks too intimidating. I remember this from Avalon Hill's Squad Leader. It was easy to find people to play the original SL, especially with the easy to learn, step-by-step approach with the learn as you play scenarios. Trying to find people willing to learn ASL was much tougher. One look at some of those charts, or units with gobs of numbers and symbols printed all over made most people say, "no thanks."

_____________________________

You can't fight in here...this is the war room!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 20

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 9:05:03 PM

hakon

Posts: 298
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quote:

But I am more concerned with what the final product is. It seems to drift a bit too close to an RTS style of game (without the time constraints): "Attack there! Do it again!"

This reminds me a bit about a discussion we had earlier about giving the AI an advantage....

I guess that it maybe comes down to style of play. I like to focus on the long-term play, rather than who can play more quickly without making mistakes. Consequently, I play quite slowly, trying to make sure that I dont make any tactical mistakes. (Again, I really hate it when games get decided by a few tactical mistakes.) I never play with a clock - that would take the enjoyment out of it for me, as THAT feels like a RTS for me. (I prefer WC3 when i want to play RTS's.)

In my opinion, the most fun part of the game is being able to plan ahead. At least several impulses, but also several years. If I play Germany, I know exactly in 1939 how many armor, mech, lnd and fighters I want north and south of the pripet's during barbarossa, and if barbarossa will come in 1941 or 1942. I will then adjust these plans according to losses and enemy builds. Drastically, if I have to, but usually only by a few units. I never build a unit just because it is "cool", it always has a purpose, and is part of my long term strategy.

When planning my land attacks, I go through the following steps (not neccessarily in that order):
1) Before I take any actions (even air). I evaluate possible attacks vs the entire enemy front, determining where I can blitz, and what kind of odds I can get.
2) I then identify any points in the enemy front that can be put out of supply by any reasonable attack, and if additional attacks (or overruns) can be made against those out of supply units (if any).
3) After identifying all possible attacks, I consider the positional advantage (both tactial and relative to my long term strategy) I am likely to gain from each possible target, and weigh this against any material advantage I may gain/loose (including chance of flipping).
4) After evaluating possible gains, I consider what effect a very poor roll will have on my front. Can I afford to loose 2 units and flip everything. This is weighted against the likelihood of such a poor roll.
5) I will then ground strike any hexes i deem vulnerable or important, either for direct attacks, follow-up attacks, or as a counter-measure vs counter-attacks, if I have available air missions and sufficient air power.
6) After ground-striking, I re-evaluate 1-4, if neccessary, before moving my units and calling any attacks, adding HQ support, ground support, etc.

To me, the first of these steps is the trivial one. Though still quite time consuming, that step is very straight forward, and given enough time, anybody will be able to perform this quite accurately. Imo, the challenges lie in steps 3 and 4, especially when faced with having to compromize between short term and long term gains and losses and between possibility and risk.

For other people, especially people that like to play very quickly (RTS people in my opinion), emphasis on being able to perform step 1 very quickly and accurately becomes one of the most important aspects of the game, as a few serious mistakes during that step can cost the game quite quickly. These people are also the most likely to loose the game to a semi-competent AI, as beating the computer in terms of the speed of these calculations can be quite hard.

Anyway, implementing the kind of "odds view" that I proposed will remove some of the "trivia" for people like me that like to play slow games with emphasis on the long term strategy, while making it possible to disable the view (for both sides) should conserve the fun for the clock-using lightening-chess-wif-players out there.

I guess these things come down to budgets and priorities, and obviously, this kind of functionality is fully optional.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 21

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 9:12:05 PM

hakon

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quote:

I just hope the map and units don't get cluttered with a bunch of numbers. IMO WiF is a work of art as well as a game...some of these suggestions are nice features to add, but I would hope that they could all be toggled off. I think the odds calculations is definitely too much. I first saw this with Korsun Pocket and it made the game too easy. Some of us enjoy and take pride in crunching numbers and having to scan the battlefield for that last air factor to make a 4-1 attack possible.

It is true that the odds function will make the game easier, or at least faster at the same skill level, against the AI. In human-vs-human games, it will just shift the focus slightly from the tactical to the strategical part of the game.

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 22

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/20/2006 9:55:11 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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I just wrote myself a note to never play against you for money (unless it is 'speed' WIF using a chess clock).

The game has many parts running from the trivial of how many movement points it costs to enter a hex to the complexity of timing a Japanese attack against Pearl Harbor.

The game is the sum of the parts. The pleasure of playing it also lies in the sum of its parts.

MWIF changes WIF in many ways. There are no counters to lay out in a row and rearrange while mulling over possibilities. No one spills their drink on the map, drastically altering the terrain in Siberia.

Having MWIF identify rules constraints is essential, especially regarding legal placement of units, moves, and attacks. Rigidly enforcing the sequence of play has both it pluses and its minuses, but more or less has to be done to keep the programming from becoming even more Byzantine than it already is.

Counting and summing, odds calculations, do table lookups, and the like should certainly be included too.

It is when determining "what is possible" that the situation gets murky. I guess I personally draw the line somewhere between (A) informing the player which units can move to a hex and (B) informing the player which units, when moved to a group of hexes, will give the best attack odds on a target hex. 'A' identifies legal moves, while 'B' identifies who to move where. This is sort of the difference between identifying all the pieces in chess that can legally capture a pawn versus which piece is best to capture it with. I approve of MWIF providing type A information but not type B information.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)

Post #: 23

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/21/2006 6:19:48 PM

dhatchen

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I think that the discussion here is moving to the trade-offs between timely information/planning assistance vs. knowing all things/advice. I, for one, would like to see MWiF remain squarely on the first.

Computer games can add greatly to the conduct of a game. Anybody who has paper gamed the Europa series games Fire in the East/Scorched Earth/Urals would greatly appreciate the ability to see conbat stengths and armour proportions along the seven foot length of game table and 2500 unit counters that make up a front line. It can very tedious to pick through six unit high stacks over 50 hexes with tweezers and remember it all.

This is not to mention incidents of hurricane "Sneeze" or earthquake "Hip Check".

Nobody likes to make a game losing mistake, but its part of the game. Actually, its part of war. History is full of accounts of lost opportunities where a commander was too timid to move or just didn't know that he could walk in to an objective initially that later became the focal point of the battle with heavy casulties. One of my fondest moments is a game of 3rd Reich where the German player put an air unit on an airbase counter and forgot that there was no land unit in that hex in France 39. We got a double move and took Berlin in Spring 40! To his credit, he continued play and in the next two turns recaptured Berlin before he had to surrender and almost got Paris in the bargain. Our gaming club talked about that game for years.

I feel that giving too much calculation-based information borders on advice (like calculating max odds and highlighting possible units or hightlighting air unit coverage) and removes one of the fun aspects of game play, that is, providing the enemy the chance to make mistakes and capitalizing on them. A good German can provide an effective air umbrella against the Allied strategic bombing campaign. A poor one just clicks a button and looks for holes in the umbrella.

Too much calculation also aids in the depredations of one of the two player types that I never game with, the G*d D*mn Accountant (the other is the Compulsive Cheater). The guy will click on every garrisoned hex in the world to maximize any of dozens of attacks and arrive at games with 40 sheets of odds calculated down to the nearest strength point. (I do NOT mean to imply that hakon is like this in any way, shape, or form; he wrote out what I actually do in my mind every turn and sounds like a competent opponent).

My point behind the diatribe is this. Focus on the planning assistance features that removes the tedium and speeds good play. We have the opportunity to speed up MWiF vs the paper game and allow more time for strategic coups. The rest can bring calculators.

Sermon complete

danh

P.S I would play MWiF anyway, I just wouldn't use the extras. It is shaping up to be a very fine product!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 24

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/21/2006 7:49:19 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Ah, extras.

These items will not be implemented as one massive set of improvements to the interface. Instead they will be layered on, like adding makeup (?). [I could use a clothes analogy here but I live in Hawaii and the only real question is whether to put on a T-shirt or no shirt at all.] Some guys prefer the "love of their life" to wear minimal makeup, others like shiny lip gloss. To each his own.

I will add the more obvious features that provide information and place the others in a "would be nice" list that may or may not get done depending on the speed with which other tasks can be completed. I find that often there are things that can be done very easily as part of a larger code modification/implementation. Knowing what players would like to have, let's me do that (as opposed to relying exclusively on my own ideas - which are sometimes goofy

).

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to dhatchen)

Post #: 25

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/22/2006 5:56:07 PM

hakon

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I guess this all comes down to two schools of thinking, and since Steve has made up his mind already, I will not argue the case further.

Also noting that Steve does not want to play against me, I guess my only path to revenge, will be starting a thread "The AI is too weak" a few days after the game is publised, with a screenie of a decisive victory over the AI.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 26

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/22/2006 6:15:11 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

I guess this all comes down to two schools of thinking, and since Steve has made up his mind already, I will not argue the case further.

Also noting that Steve does not want to play against me, I guess my only path to revenge, will be starting a thread "The AI is too weak" a few days after the game is publised, with a screenie of a decisive victory over the AI.

Oh, I am quite willing to play a game against you (and anyone else for that matter). It was just the bit about the money.

Of course there is also this thing about me finding time. Poof! There goes a week!

Poof! There goes a month!

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hakon)

Post #: 27

RE: Display the defense of each hex - 1/22/2006 6:33:24 PM

hakon

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I guess I read that part a bit quickly. The time issue is always significant when it comes to wif games.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 28