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Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 6:26:45 AM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline 		This is somewhat embarassing, but I really don't know the answers to the following questions and wonder if anybody else does who would be kind enough to enlighten me.

1. I only play against the AI and I was wondering if the AI conducts mine warfare, i.e. lays minefields, etc.

2. How do minesweepers work? I've been going through my OOB and between the USN and allied navies I must end up having well over 100 minesweepers if not more and figure in my next game to homeport a certain number at each port to condinuously sweep for mines in case the AI tries laying any on me.

Thanks

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 7:10:28 AM   
dtravel


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Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think the AI lays offensive minefields (i.e. at your bases). At least I've never seen any evidence it has in my games. I think it will lay defensive minefields but to be honest, I haven't played in several months and its been almost a year since I was on the offensive so it could be just my senility talking.

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Post #: 2
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 7:15:24 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Well I only play PBEM ( except for testing against the AI ) so I can't answer Q1 .. but for Q2 ... you can put them in your ports on patrol mode ... make sure they are undocked ... and they will sweep enemy mines ( assuming this is frinedly port ). Otherwise drive them through hexes contining mines and they will locate and sweep the fields. If the AI doesn't lay minefields etc. in its own ports .. then you can use your minesweepers as escorts until you do an invasion. Then having an MSW TF or 2 along will ensure the mines are sweep and reduce the damage to your other TFs ... NOT having MSW TFs will increase the damage your other TFs take, this maybe the only time you'll really need MSW TFs against the AI.




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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 7:25:12 AM   
dereck


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From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

I don't think the AI lays offensive minefields (i.e. at your bases). At least I've never seen any evidence it has in my games. I think it will lay defensive minefields but to be honest, I haven't played in several months and its been almost a year since I was on the offensive so it could be just my senility talking.



I resemble that remark ... I think ... what was I just saying?

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Post #: 4
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 7:26:40 AM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline 		Well, even if the AI doesn't mine my ports I think I'll get in the habit of assuming it does (just to get in the habit in case the sun rises in the west and pigs fly and I play PBEM).

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 7:57:24 AM   
jwilkerson


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From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Good plan !!! Some players will mine you to extreme frustration !!!

( though much harder to do as the Japanese than as the Allies .. the Japanese only have 4 ML subs )





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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 8:11:39 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Good plan !!! Some players will mine you to extreme frustration !!!

( though much harder to do as the Japanese than as the Allies .. the Japanese only have 4 ML subs )






And the Allies have how many? Argonaut (I upgrade it so it becomes a transport sub for historical sake), two Dutch subs and one RN sub late in the war. That makes 4 each by my math, but basically two since one arrives so late it has no impact and if Argonaut is refitted.


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Post #: 7
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 11:41:18 AM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
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Status: offline 		The AI will lay defensive minefields. I've run into a few when trying to bombard early japanese confiscations. The AI will send a ML with an invasion force, and after the troops take the place over, lays mines. Lost the Australia at Rabaul because of this.

Early on, I like to make transport tfs on Continous Supply missions of MSWs. A weak patrol, but does increase their skill level.

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 6:02:58 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Good plan !!! Some players will mine you to extreme frustration !!!

( though much harder to do as the Japanese than as the Allies .. the Japanese only have 4 ML subs )






And the Allies have how many? Argonaut (I upgrade it so it becomes a transport sub for historical sake), two Dutch subs and one RN sub late in the war. That makes 4 each by my math, but basically two since one arrives so late it has no impact and if Argonaut is refitted.



Allies seem to be able to use all but the smallest subs for mine laying so that would make it 100+ from what my opponents tell me ...





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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 6:09:51 PM   
Mr.Frag


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quote:

And the Allies have how many? Argonaut (I upgrade it so it becomes a transport sub for historical sake), two Dutch subs and one RN sub late in the war. That makes 4 each by my math, but basically two since one arrives so late it has no impact and if Argonaut is refitted.


Don't need subs with all the heavy bombers to drop mines ... carpet bombing turns to carpet mining on Jan 1, 1943

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 7:28:25 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag


Don't need subs with all the heavy bombers to drop mines ... carpet bombing turns to carpet mining on Jan 1, 1943



What should´t be done as long the "bug" exists that mine laying bombers can´t be intercepted by cap!

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Post #: 11
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 9:03:24 PM   
testarossa


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From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		Keep a couple of MSWs at the base. Op losses and no results will stop mining.

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Post #: 12
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 9:24:52 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Status: offline 		Derek, I have never seen the AI conduct offensive mining operations in all my time playing UV/WITP. You will need the MSWs later when you start invading the AIs bases, but in the meantime their best use is to escort convoys.

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Post #: 13
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/21/2006 11:59:13 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

What should´t be done as long the "bug" exists that mine laying bombers can´t be intercepted by cap!


Check out that article on aerial minelaying that's on page 2 herein: titled something like "Possibly interesting article or whatever". Doesn't look like a bug at all. The number of bombers engaged in mining that were lost from all causes was very small.

I've never seen the AI do offensive mining.

And this appears to be a little trick one can use as the IJN. Send a TF of PCs, PGs, APDs and whatever other (non minesweeper) small stuff you can find into an enemy hex with a minefield and CD combination. The PCs are pretty good at cleaning out some mines and the CDs don't engage. Works with DDs too but the occasional "I found one (BOOM)" hurts a little when it's a DD. The PCs, etc clear mines one by one so this wouldn't work well with a really big minefield (MSWs sweep a lane but then again MSWs get blown to pieces by the CD units). It seems to work pretty good in the DEI where the Allies are likely to have relatively small minefields.

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Post #: 14
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 12:40:27 AM   
castor troy


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Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		so you say that´s right if 100 bombers mining e.g. Truk where 200 fighters are on cap and they can´t be intercepted. So that´s how history was brought into that game...

for me it´s a bug and is house ruled in my games.

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Post #: 15
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 1:51:27 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

And the Allies have how many? Argonaut


First - ALL Japanese subs are rated to lay mines - look in your editor.

Second- Argonaut is NOT a minelayer! This was fixed in UV - did they unfix it again? Argonaut was modified to a transport sub and had no mine laying gear at all. Too bad too - the special mines for her were never used.

Third - I think ALL Allied subs are also rated to lay mines if you like. In fact, I do so at least half the time - and never have found one that won't.

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 1:55:56 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

so you say that´s right if 100 bombers mining e.g. Truk where 200 fighters are on cap and they can´t be intercepted. So that´s how history was brought into that game...

for me it´s a bug and is house ruled in my games.


How do fighters on CAP intercept small vessels operating at night? When the USN raided Balikpapan, the IJN rear admiral believed they were a single, Dutch submarine! Things are really hard to understand at night. A generation later I saw a night battle in the Gulf of Siam. Even with what we regarded as "modern" radar (not imaging radar like RN uses today) we were confused, and ultimately failed in our mission. Night battle is inherantly confusing.

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 1:56:56 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

And the Allies have how many? Argonaut


First - ALL Japanese subs are rated to lay mines - look in your editor.

Second- Argonaut is NOT a minelayer! This was fixed in UV - did they unfix it again? Argonaut was modified to a transport sub and had no mine laying gear at all. Too bad too - the special mines for her were never used.

Third - I think ALL Allied subs are also rated to lay mines if you like. In fact, I do so at least half the time - and never have found one that won't.



Sorry, Argonaut IS a minelayer on 7dec41. It was an error in UV because Argonaut converted to a "raiding submarine transport" prior to the start of UV. If you allow Argonaut to upgrade, she loses the special minlaying capabilty in early 42 (don't remember the exact date). Most people would rather have a minelayer than a transport so they do not allow the upgrade.

(in reply to el cid again)
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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 1:57:27 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Derek, I have never seen the AI conduct offensive mining operations in all my time playing UV/WITP.


OK - I'll bite. When you hit a mine, were did it come from?

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Post #: 19
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 2:37:46 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		I think what he means is that he never encountered an AI laid mine in one of his own bases.

My experience in UV/WitP is that I have only encountered mines in enemy bases that I entered for one reason or another (defensive field); never in one of my own bases (offensive field).

A mine is explicitly OFFENSIVE to any ship that hits one

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Post #: 20
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 3:19:03 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

so you say that´s right if 100 bombers mining e.g. Truk where 200 fighters are on cap and they can´t be intercepted. So that´s how history was brought into that game...

for me it´s a bug and is house ruled in my games.

Question: When heavy bombers air-drop those minefields, do they do so during the day or at night? If at night, the daytime CAP couldn't intercept them.

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 3:27:11 AM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		From the article it sounded like the mining was done mostly at night and, incidentally relied for the most part on radar navigation.

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 3:44:55 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

Derek, I have never seen the AI conduct offensive mining operations in all my time playing UV/WITP.


OK - I'll bite. When you hit a mine, were did it come from?


Spence hit it on the nose... the only time my ships have hit mines has been in enemy ports. For clarity sake, WITPers usually differentiate between offensive (mining enemy or open waters) and defensive (mining your own bases) mining operations.

BTW: defensive minefields are less likely to cause damage to your own ships, whereas offensive minefields are offensive to both sides...

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 9:17:53 AM   
jwilkerson


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From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

And the Allies have how many? Argonaut


First - ALL Japanese subs are rated to lay mines - look in your editor.
Second- Argonaut is NOT a minelayer! This was fixed in UV - did they unfix it again? Argonaut was modified to a transport sub and had no mine laying gear at all. Too bad too - the special mines for her were never used.

Third - I think ALL Allied subs are also rated to lay mines if you like. In fact, I do so at least half the time - and never have found one that won't.



Wonder what "rated to lay mines" means ? Only 4 Japanese subs can lay mines in the game ... and 100+ allied subs can ... I know that much ... "rated" or not.



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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 12:23:28 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

From the article it sounded like the mining was done mostly at night and, incidentally relied for the most part on radar navigation.


I have not seen the article - but that is what it SHOULD have said. Mine laying is a very safe mission for bombers. It can be done in ways that do not attract the kind of opposition that other targets do. It is rare to encounter AAA over water - and AAA kills more bombers than fighters do.
It is also rare for interceptors to be defending water targets. They are geared to think in terms of defending cities, factories, bases, bridges, etc. And at night - only night fighters have the option to even try - over water anyway. You can lay a minefield in many places - it is hard to know where you plan to drop? Even if someone guesses what you are up to. Not many planes were lost in this role - and the game is right to make it that way - it is not a bug.

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 12:27:34 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Spence hit it on the nose... the only time my ships have hit mines has been in enemy ports.


I have been hit by AI laid mines in the Torres Strait - and in the Port of Manila. That is, the minefield was undetected until it attacked, THEN it appeared on the map as an enemy minefield. I do not think a Japanese minefield in an Allied location is a defensive minefield.

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 12:30:21 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Wonder what "rated to lay mines" means ?


Rated to lay mines means mines are listed in the weapons loadout.
AND also that you can assign a minelaying mission to the sub. I use minelaying missions at least half the time - and I have yet to find a sub with torpedo tubes that won't let me do that - provided I load at the right port. Now I have trouble with minor Allied subs on the SECOND mission - the first mission is fine. But ever try to RELOAD mines on a Dutch sub?

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RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 2:08:05 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

so you say that´s right if 100 bombers mining e.g. Truk where 200 fighters are on cap and they can´t be intercepted. So that´s how history was brought into that game...

for me it´s a bug and is house ruled in my games.


How do fighters on CAP intercept small vessels operating at night? When the USN raided Balikpapan, the IJN rear admiral believed they were a single, Dutch submarine! Things are really hard to understand at night. A generation later I saw a night battle in the Gulf of Siam. Even with what we regarded as "modern" radar (not imaging radar like RN uses today) we were confused, and ultimately failed in our mission. Night battle is inherantly confusing.


sorry, but I´m not talking about VESSELS I´m talking about BOMBERS! Hundreds of them can lay mines at 6000 feet at bright daylight and the 200 fighters on CAP at 10000 feet can´t intercept them! ====> B U G

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Post #: 28
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/22/2006 11:36:05 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I have been hit by AI laid mines in the Torres Strait - and in the Port of Manila. That is, the minefield was undetected until it attacked, THEN it appeared on the map as an enemy minefield. I do not think a Japanese minefield in an Allied location is a defensive minefield.



I've never run into such a creature... I don't know why, maybe I'm retreating too fast for the AI to mine my ports! (Okay, not really, I have played as far as March '43 where I was definitely well into the offensive mode)

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Post #: 29
RE: Minewarfare Questions - 1/23/2006 12:26:02 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
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From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		In reply to Castor Troy

The article wouldn't let me cut and paste so here are some stats from its summary:

In the so-called Outer Zone (Marianas, Carolines, Philippines, DEI, China):

3231 mining a/c sorties laying 9254 mines in 108 minefields
40 a/c lost to all causes
estimate of 405 ships sunk or damaged/776,260 tons

In the Inner Zone (Japan)

1529 B-29 mining sorties laying 12,135 mines in 26 minefields
15 a/c lost to all causes
estimated 670 ships/1,251,256 tons
apparently the Japanese resorted to sweeping some mines with suicide small craft upon occasion

The facts indicate that Japanese CAP, even over the home islands, was pretty ineffective in preventing/deterring aerial mining by Allied a/c and inflicted at most only about 1% losses (if ALL losses were credited to Japanese defenses).

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 30
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