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ANZAC OOB's - 1/27/2006 3:30:27 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline 		(1) The Kiwis:

Ostensibly Matrix simply used Niehorster’s page when designing the NZ OOB for WITP. Problem is that Niehorster’s page is missing lots of NZ formations that existed even in December 1941. The following comes mainly from the “Commonwealth Orders of Battle” series published by Nafziger.

Please notice that the term "regiment" stands here for battalions by US terminology.

NZ Mounted Brigades

These are represented as cavalry brigades in WITP. Historically they were never completely formed and their component mounted regiments were converted to independent so-called “Light Armoured Fighting Vehicle Regiments” (LAFV). LAFV were organized under a TOE that contained 12 Beaverette Armoured Cars, 8 Morris Scout Cars, 24 Bren Carriers, and 4 3in Mortar Carriers, basically weak recce regiments (Beaverette’s were locally produced cars with some armor plates for protection and a Bren LMG and its seems that the Morris never made it to NZ and that there were never enough Bren Carriers). The Beaverettes were later replaced by Daimler and White Scout Cars. Eventually (late 1942) all LAFV were converted to armoured (with 15 Valentine and 30 Stuart tanks) and recce regiments (with 15 Stuart, 15 Daimler or White Scout Cars, 9 Beaverttes, 15 Bren Carriers and 4 3in Mortar Carriers).

Missing NZ Home Defense Infantry Brigades:

7th NZ Brigade – formed January 1941 (Central District)

10th NZ Brigade – formed November 1941 (Southern District)

11th NZ Brigade – formed November 1941 (Southern District)

12th NZ Brigade – formed November 1941 (Northern District)

NZ Infantry Brigades used standard British TOE's.

Missing NZ Overseas (Pacific) Infantry Brigades:

15th NZ Brigade – formed April 1943 (Fiji/New Caledonia for 3rd NZ Division, never brought to full strength, disbanded after some months)

16th NZ Brigade – formed April 1943 (Tonga)


NZ Home Defense Divisions:

1st and 12th NZ Brigades formed 1st NZ Division (Northern)

2nd and 7th NZ Brigades formed 4th NZ Division (Central)

3rd, 10th and 11th Brigades formed 5th NZ Division (Southern)

There were a Field Regiment and an AT Battery for every brigade. Eventually every division received a recce regiment when the (9) LAFV regiments were restructured to (3) recce regiments and (6) armoured regiments .
Post #: 1
RE: ANZAC OOB's - 1/27/2006 8:46:15 PM   
akdreemer


Posts: 1028
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

(1) The Kiwis:

Ostensibly Matrix simply used Niehorster’s page when designing the NZ OOB for WITP. Problem is that Niehorster’s page is missing lots of NZ formations that existed even in December 1941. The following comes mainly from the “Commonwealth Orders of Battle” series published by Nafziger.




Yet again another reason why multible sources are a must when modding and why CHS is a group effort.. no one person has all the data, references, or expertise.

_____________________________


(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 2
RE: ANZAC OOB's - 1/27/2006 10:28:30 PM   
Pascal_slith


Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline 		Seems that an online website using Nafziger's work along with others is available at

http://home.adelphia.net/%7Edryan67/orders/army.html

of which the British & Commonwealth base website is

http://www.regiments.org/wars/20ww2/ww2index.htm

Anyone checked this website and found out its reliability?

Another source are the official histories online at

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-corpus-WH2.html



< Message edited by Pascal -- 1/27/2006 10:34:57 PM >

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(


(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 3
RE: ANZAC OOB's - 1/28/2006 1:42:04 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		I have found David Ryan's site to be excellent. However he concentrates on the individual battalions which is a bit of a bother for WITP level OOBs. Data on Regiments.org is a bit spotty. The New Zealand official site is excellent but a little difficult to dig through for OOB data.

The New Zealand Army (like the Australian Army) shifted battalions between brigades such that many apparently new brigades were actually only new command organizations over existing formations.

Looking at Kereguelen's data I am interested in the 7th Brigade. The initial assignment of Brigades (as of 12/41) in most OOBs does not mention the 7th and it forms a gap in the sequence (1-3 in NZ, 4-6 in Europe, 8 on Fiji).

Other than the 7th Brigade it might be best to limit the additional New Zealand units to the 34th and 36th Battalions.

Don


Edit: I incorrectly credited the data to Alaskan Warrior (who made the first reply). It was of course Kereguelen, an excellent source of OOB data, and to whom I owe an apology. I am getting tired of making such stupid mistakes - from now on I will try and make only smart mistakes.

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 1/28/2006 10:03:36 PM >

(in reply to Pascal_slith)
Post #: 4
RE: ANZAC OOB's - 1/28/2006 7:02:18 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


I have found David Ryan's site to be excellent. However he concentrates on the individual battalions which is a bit of a bother for WITP level OOBs. Data on Regiments.org is a bit spotty. The New Zealand official site is excellent but a little difficult to dig through for OOB data.

The New Zealand Army (like the Australian Army) shifted battalions between brigades such that many apparently new brigades were actually only new command organizations over existing formations.



Hi,

actually my source is David Ryan. Source title was an error (was at work and did not have it in front of my, title was from memory).

Actual title is: "The British Armies in World War Two, An Organisational History, Vol. 7, The New Zealand Army and The South African Army" by David Ryan, David Hughes and Steve Rothwell; published by Nafziger.

A most interesting booklet that covers even coastal artillery.

While you're ostensibly correct about the Australian Army, the New Zealand Army was somewhat different in this aspect, they generally did not shift battalions as happily around as the Aussies within their territorial brigades (there were some exceptions, but only on a very limited scale: 1st NZ Scottish and 1st Ruahine moved from 7th Brigade to the shortlived 15th Brigade in 1943; 6th Canterbury that moved to 16th Bde/Tonga in 1943 to relieve 34th Battalion had never been part of any brigade before). NZ stopped raising new infantry battalions in Sept 1942.

K

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 5
RE: ANZAC OOB's - 1/28/2006 7:33:06 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Hi,

actually my source is David Ryan. Source title was an error (was at work and did not have it in front of my, title was from memory).

Actual title is: "The British Armies in World War Two, An Organisational History, Vol. 7, The New Zealand Army and The South African Army" by David Ryan, David Hughes and Steve Rothwell; published by Nafziger.

A most interesting booklet that covers even coastal artillery.

While you're ostensibly correct about the Australian Army, the New Zealand Army was somewhat different in this aspect, they generally did not shift battalions as happily around as the Aussies within their territorial brigades (there were some exceptions, but only on a very limited scale: 1st NZ Scottish and 1st Ruahine moved from 7th Brigade to the shortlived 15th Brigade in 1943; 6th Canterbury that moved to 16th Bde/Tonga in 1943 to relieve 34th Battalion had never been part of any brigade before). NZ stopped raising new infantry battalions in Sept 1942.

K


Sorry, my comments on David Ryan related to his web site.

I do believe there was somewhat more movement of battalions - the 30th for instance moved from the 8th the seed the 14th.

The upgrades of Cavalry units to light armour is interesting - the same thing happened to a few of the Australian Light Horse units. The Australian 2nd Cavalry was briefly redesignated 2nd Armoured (actually mixed) and some of the individual brigades acquired tanks. This also applies to the New Zealand Cavalry Brigades - one armoured Regiment (Battalion) and the rest motorized. I think the Australian armour was one tank squadron and two of armoured cars per Bde but the New Zealanders went for a full TOE armour regiment (mixed Valentines and Stuarts).

I am no longer involved with CHS but I think much of this would be a good idea for CHS. Not so enthusiastic about too many additional home defense units in New Zealand, as it would be very unlikely if they would ever come into action. I do have the armoured upgrades for Australian and New Zealand Cavalry units in my own scenario.

I am interested in the Nafziger book - have you ordered from him recently? Some of his stuff has proven a little weak in the past but I am impressed if David Ryan is involved.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 6
RE: ANZAC OOB's - 1/28/2006 7:47:27 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I do believe there was somewhat more movement of battalions - the 30th for instance moved from the 8th the seed the 14th.


Yes sure, but was talking about NZTF (home defense) units here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
The upgrades of Cavalry units to light armour is interesting - the same thing happened to a few of the Australian Light Horse units. The Australian 2nd Cavalry was briefly redesignated 2nd Armoured (actually mixed) and some of the individual brigades acquired tanks. This also applies to the New Zealand Cavalry Brigades - one armoured Regiment (Battalion) and the rest motorized. I think the Australian armour was one tank squadron and two of armoured cars per Bde but the New Zealanders went for a full TOE armour regiment (mixed Valentines and Stuarts).


Seems that there was absolutely no horsed cavalry left by January 1942 in NZ. And yes, the Kiwis relied heavily on armoured forces for home defense. But that is a very complicated affair and numbers available did never match the set TOE's.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
I am no longer involved with CHS but I think much of this would be a good idea for CHS. Not so enthusiastic about too many additional home defense units in New Zealand, as it would be very unlikely if they would ever come into action. I do have the armoured upgrades for Australian and New Zealand Cavalry units in my own scenario.


I've suffered from an invasion of NZ in one PBEM, one never knows what the opponent is up to. Thus I'm always in favour of historical available forces even if they have an impact on play balance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don BowenI am interested in the Nafziger book - have you ordered from him recently? Some of his stuff has proven a little weak in the past but I am impressed if David Ryan is involved.


Yup, recently ordered. Thusfar only the volumes on China and France did not meet my expectations (and the twelve-book series on the Red Army is simply amazing!).

K


(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 7
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