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Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006

 
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Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/27/2006 10:00:34 PM   
puresimmer

 

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OK, I have some of the basic code implemented on the multiple levels of minors for PS 2006 and I am not really happy with the impact of the feature given the complexity.

I am finding managing/tracking up to 100 players per franchise to be a bit unwieldy. It just doesn't seem to add that much to the game. I don't know if it because I am so used to 50 players with 2 levels, but I'm waffling on this one.

When I add in play balance and AI implications I am wondering if the time might be better spent improving other areas of the AI, in game manager stuff, new almanac and other tweaks, more stats, improved player card and other general polish to the existing core game without throwing such a radical new game play mechanic into the mix.

I'll let you know my decision soon, but I am curious as to your thoughts on this issue. I'll also be totally honest that there is a timing issue here. The multiple levels of minors feature is bigger (coding/complextity wise) than all the other features combined, so that plays a role as well.

So, post your feedback here, I'm listening. I'd say I'm leaning towards axing it though. I know a few of you might be unhappy, so voice your opinions here.




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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/27/2006 10:30:48 PM   
KG Erwin


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Quick answer: "Anything that endangers the game's stability and adds unneccessary complexity should be immediately shot."

Personally, I'd prefer more in-game options and improved AI over increased roster sizes.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/27/2006 10:35:24 PM   
Edward

 

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i'm in agreement with kg.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/27/2006 11:38:49 PM   
PadresFan104


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From this long time player....

Axe it. I have no need for it, and would prefer more in game management options (risk/reward type stuff that really affects gameplay), better handling of lineups and rotations by the ai, improved almanac, more and varied PSPN stories, improved PbP text, a more dynamic on field representation of the players and ball trajectory, and a more polished interface (so that all screens look like they were designed with the same UI Guidelines.)

Al

(in reply to puresimmer)
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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 12:08:52 AM   
bobsayah

 

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>>> I am wondering if the time might be better spent improving other areas of the AI, in game manager stuff, new almanac and other tweaks, more stats, improved player card and other general polish to the existing core game

That's what I'd prefer anyway. It's hard enough to keep track of the 60 players I have right now. I don't need 40 more. I'd much prefer 2006 to focus on the core game. For example, teach the AI how to do a double switch. Or even just understand something as simple as if I have a 1B/3B playing 1B and my backup 1B pinch hits for my 3B, keep the backup 1B in the game at first and move the 1B/3B to 3B. For those who actually watch the games being played out, I think there are quite a number of areas where the AI could be improved. And, there are some really simple things as well, that have been out there for several versions now. Like: "Fly ball to left-center. He makes a great play". Well, which "he" was it: my CF or my LF? I want to know who's making a big defensive play for my team. 2005 seemed to be focused on multi-player support and real player support - two areas of which I have little interest. I'm hoping 2006 is a return to a focus on the core game itself.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 1:09:16 AM   
Silverbullet


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For my part you can axe it.
Mini micro managing is not something I would want to do.
There are many other phases of Pure Sim that warrants your attention other than this.
It sounds like it would be spending a great deal of time on something that would not truly enhance the pleasure of the gaming experience.


< Message edited by Silverbullet -- 1/28/2006 1:10:10 AM >

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 1:52:49 AM   
dneely


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Shaun:

We do not need it!!

Give us a much improved AI, era based mods, more in game managerial decisions, more unusual PBP, all of the missing aspects of baseball added and some past seasons set up with photos, ballpark photos etc. so we can accurately replay baseball history. Plus for online leagues I would love to see true Internet face-to-face play added.

DNeely

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 2:13:10 AM   
redeck


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Shaun,

i would set it aside for 2007 and work on adding the other things. I would really like to see full control over expansion teams, league/division birth ect.

woulsd still like to see more control over the number of players on a roster, for example an option to have less than ten pitchers on your teams. ei: deadball era and the ability to change those types of options as your asc advances.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 2:22:10 AM   
ChiefT

 

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DITTO. Nice thought, butyou put too much effort into this game to see it bogged down. Maybe ML roster expansion in September.


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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 3:42:41 AM   
Roxbury

 

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Absolutely think you should forego multiple level of minors for other options. More in-game options. Injuries tweak, particularly to pitchers, I think you need to somehow have the possibility if you use a/some pitchers too much, there is a higher possibility you may cause an injury to your pitcher. If a pitcher's endurance says he starts to tire at 100 pitches, maybe make it a wider range, meaning he could lose it at 90 or maybe 110, thus, if you leave him in too long you could cause disaster. (Not sure if I articulated that correctly) I only play with fictional players by the way. Would like to see managers with a particular type of philosophy, pitching,power,speed etc. Coaches for hitting, pitching,etc Scouting staff, Shaun I think you had this at sometime in a very early version of your game. Obviously these managers, coaches, scouts would all be part of your budget. Maybe a very good hitting coach may help a teams batting average only 0- +5, and would be very costly. A good coach would be -3 to +3. An average hitting coach -5 to +2. Not sure if this makes any sense, but I am sure there are people who could think this out much better than I have suggested.

Shaun, you have done a "Wonderful" job on this game and I am very excited about the future of this game just keep up the great work, no one is more tuned in to his customers.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 7:51:46 AM   
Beach23BoyP

 

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My ideas have changed over time.

1) When using "real players" multiple levels of minors are not needed, nor are they desired.

2) When using "fantasy players" multiple levels of minors are needed and are highly desired in my estimation. A great deal of the enjoyment of fantasy players is watching them develop over a span of years -- 17 to 24 or so. You "need" to have multiple levels of minors for that purpose.

When I played only with real players I was only interested in Majors and AAA. Plus, one of the things I really liked about PS was that you could actually play your AAA games just like your big league games.

If PS wants to focus on "real players" only -- then multiple levels aren't needed. But ...

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 9:24:02 AM   
arctcat

 

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Shawn What about 3 Leagues like Fps baseball98 did that would be
Fun

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 3:20:56 PM   
jono

 

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Warning, this will probably end up being a very long post. Read at your own risk.
When you first posted that there would be multiple levels of minor leagues in the 2006 version I was happy as a pig in slop. In the pre season draft right now I might get 1 player that could start on my minor league team with the rest riding the pine and released after 1 season. With more minor leagues I feel I could give my draftees a better shot at making the big leagues by placing them at a level where they might be competitive. However if implementing this would impede the improvement of the other aspects of the game I could live without it for now.
Here are my thoughts on what could be improved on in the current game. This is the view of someone who manages all of his teams games. I realize that your love and probably most of your player base is in being a GM rather than a manager so the game will always be a better GM simulation than a managing one and I can live with that as right now I think this game is the best of its type on the market for fictional players. For real players I might prefer Strat-O-Matic to replay a season as it is more focused on managing and sometimes for fictional players I think about playing OOTPB but get scared off by the thoughts of controling ticket prices and such and marrying and raising a fictional family in game to see if my son could play in the majors.
A) Improve the AI. Right now it is way too easy to make the human team a dynasty. On the GM side the free agent signing AI is terrible at best. Teams seem to go after players with little rhyme or reason such as a team with an above average center fielder signing a slightly worse aging center fielder to a huge money 5 year contract to have the former free agent sit on the major league bench for 2 years and spend the last 3 years on the minor league bench. The aging of older players, especially position players, seems a bit too harsh. I just looked at my latest PSPN report on the 10 oldest batters in the league and checked how they were doing this year. The ages were 35, 34, 5 33's and 3 32's. Through 135 games not one had 100 AB's and the highest BA of them all was .267 with most of the rest hovering around the Mendoza line. It seems as soon as a player hits age 32 his potential drops to 1 and all his numbers drop 10-20% a year. I don't think that I'll ever see a plus 40 year old fictional player such as Roger Clemens or Ted Williams have a great year or even a mediocre one as the game is now.
On the managing side of the AI I have found that there are way too many position substitutions. If you can get many of the teams into extra innings they have no pinch hitters left while my bench is full. Some teams seem to play by little league rules that every position player has to play in every game. A batter that is 2 for 2 with 2 homers against my pitcher will be pinch hit for by a scrub for seemingly no reason, or bottom of the ninth, tight game, no outs, the AI will use its last pinch hitter for the number 8 hitter leaving the pitcher to bat for himself.
On the pitching AI it seems for the most part that for starting pitchers the sixth inning is the magic inning to be pinch hit for, no matter how bad you're pitching you won't be pinch hit for before the sixth and almost always no matter how well you're pitching if you're scheduled to bat in the sixth inning or later you will be pinch hit for. For teams that pull pitchers based on pitch limits a pitcher might be within a couple of pitches of his limit in the fourth or fifth inning he'll be allowed to bat then after striking out the first batter on 3 pitches he'll be pulled for a reliever.
After saying all that bad stuff about the AI I know that there will never be an AI that is perfect for everyone, you'll never please all of us and those were just my opinions on what I might think could be fixed AI wise. I'm sure if you fixed them I would probably find something else to bitch about. I wouldn't be one finger typing this three hour epic if I didn't enjoy your work.
B) On the managing side fix the pinch count on steals. There is nothing more frustrating to me then to have the opponent have runners on the corners, two outs, 0-2 count, the runner on first steals second and all of a sudden there are runners on second and third and the batter magically has a 3-0 count. I go from one pitch from either striking out the batter, getting the batter to hit the ball into an out or the batter getting on via a hit or error to 1 pitch from walking the bases loaded or having the batter reach on a hit or error or getting the batter to hit into an out.
C) Again on the managing side fix the pop up boxes on fly balls so that you can actually throw out a runner or be thrown out when the pop up box appears. Right now to try to even the playing field somewhat I only send my runner home on a fly ball if his speed number is greater than the fielders arm number and I will never try to advance from first to second or second to third on a fly no matter how deep it is.
D) On the general side fix the errors so that you can advance more than one base on an error such as having throwing errors as well as just fielding errors or on a 3-2 count runners running on the pitch ball hit to center, center fielder drops the ball and runner on first stops at second. In real life the runner would be past second heading to third by the time the fielder dropped the ball.
Well my typing finger is tired and so am I believe it or not this reply took me over 3 hours to type with my limited ability and if any of you are still awake God Bless and good morning.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 5:40:36 PM   
DonBraswell


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I say drop it and improve the AI. In 24 seasons I have won the League Championship 21 times. I have the lowest pay roll in the league. Just prior to the end of the season teams send down too many of their regular line up players and bring up minor leaguers (unworthy ones) and use them in the Championship games. For the last 10 seasons I have been trading off my stars and good players once they hit age 28. (This from a guy who normally keeps his players until they retire) Any way I still Win! Even with a bunch of rookies. I win/finnish 10 to 30 games ahead of the rest of the League. Oh, and the stars I trade or release, they are sent to the minors after one or two seasons (never in the bigs again) or no one signs them. As others have said double switch is a problem the AI can't handle.
The AI please Shaun

Don

< Message edited by DonBraswell -- 1/28/2006 5:52:01 PM >

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/28/2006 10:33:28 PM   
SirWolf1960

 

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Shaun,

To be completely honest with you, multiple levels of minors isn't a big deal to me. In fact, I was not really looking forward to having to decide who plays at A and AA, and how that would affect development. But then, I like to play pretty fast, sometimes trying to do a season in a sitting. I'm sure others will disagree. ;)

Steve

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/29/2006 6:01:54 AM   
SpharV2

 

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Personally this was the one change I was looking forward too the most. I don't mind, and in fact, enjoy, following and nudging along all my minor league recruits on up to the majors. I always felt that this was one area that was a huge hole in Puresim, mainly because I could never get enough time for a lot of my young guys since everyone drafted was immediately stuck on a team along with guys who already had a couple of years to develop.

That said, nothing is more important to me than the AI. I don't have time for online leagues, so I only play solo, and I want it to be as challenging as possible. So if it comes down to a choice between seeing a decent minor league system, and getting a challenging AI, it'll be AI all the time. You can keep the in game managing options, I know some want it, I could care less. AI and minors are pretty much everything I was looking forward to.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/29/2006 5:07:55 PM   
acetonic


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I would gladly give up the expanded minor leagues if it meant you'd have time to implement a better commissioner, with full power over expansion and alignment.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/30/2006 10:34:15 PM   
Amaroq

 

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Wow, the overwhelming majority are in favor of axing it - I wouldn't have thought that.

Beach23BoyP's point about not really needing it for 'real' players is a good one; its a feature most valuable for those of us playing with fictional players.

I find myself currently almost entirely unwilling to draft very high-potential players, as its too much of a long-term commitment and I have nowhere to put them to get experience. So, I love the idea of a 100-man roster.

My personal ideal would be to see us go to a real-life setup, implementing all of the player-movement rules of real-life baseball: the 40-man roster, minor league free agency, the rule 5 draft, etc. Having taken the time to study them, they seem to me to be a very nicely designed system of checks and balances designed to prevent a single team from stockpiling talent or keeping players below the level they ought to be playing at.

So, the abstract minor league tiers was always a compromise solution, in my mind. I can understand why you'd need it: but more detail would suit me more.

I don't think all customers would want to track all 100 players, which is why I think we need the ability to delegate minor league development to our scouts and youth coaches.

That said, the AI right now still doesn't truly challenge me, and I think giving me the ability to hoard 40 more players would make that situation worse, not better - I'm thinking of playing a 35-player league next to see if that reduces my ability to stockpile talent. So, I personally might not miss THIS incarnation of the expanded minors - but I do think that in the long term expanded minors are the way forward.

Incidentally, this is why I like the 'real' player movement rules, conceptually: I think implementing them would force improvements to the AI, and limit my ability to hoard players.

...

Finally, have you considered this from a business perspective?

I think your posters here are all saying "I like the game, and I just want improvements to it." Which makes sense - your existing customers are happy with the game, and would be happy to see a game 'good' in their eyes already get better.

But it feels to me like 'expanded minors' was the biggest-ticket item on your feature list, the bulletpoint at the top of your sales list.

Its the feature, of this year's features, which was going to bring in some of the OOTP crowd, and might bring new users to the table. That's why you thought it was worth doing in the first place.

Has that changed?

Really, the questions to ask yourself are...

Do I think I'll make more sales by adding 'expanded minors', missing Opening Day, and coming out after OOTP with a game that feels more roughly balanced and missing a few of my polish features?

Or do I think I'll make more sales by axing my big-ticket item, but beating OOTP to market, and hitting Opening Day hype with a game that feels more balanced and has more polish features?

Ultimately, that should be your driving force. Honestly, both have risks and benefits; the latter relies more on your existing fan base 're-upping', while the former relies more on catching new customers with the risk of losing out on the hype, or to a competitior.

(in reply to acetonic)
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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/31/2006 2:27:55 AM   
lynchjm24

 

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I was a big proponent of multiple levels in the minors. However, I'd be fine with a new version if all it did was make the game a challenge in single player mode.

Oh and if it stopped having young free agents have huge increases in their potential rating. Once a player goes undrafted or gets released he should never improve.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/31/2006 7:44:09 PM   
John David


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More in game management is key for me.

As a long time strat-o-matic player, I really appreciate the in game functions that it features. I would love to see more of these features added to PureSim !

JD

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 1/31/2006 9:45:15 PM   
dnelms

 

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Shaun... I'd much rather have more in-game options than to have to keep up with multiple minor leagues. I just think the gain is not worth the price (in terms of time and end result increasing game enjoyment). I will however agree with BeachBoy that it does make a difference for fantasy players, but I just created a player a watched him go thru the years.


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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/1/2006 3:03:11 AM   
waltwa

 

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i may be a little confused on this issue. are we talking about a system that allows us to fill the minors with about 75 computer generated players- if so i don't think it is very important. but if we are talking about a game that allows us to have say the best 60 or so of the best players of the sf giants and a system that allows about 10 or so fictional players generated by the A1 each year i think it is important. i am talking about a system that allows around 60 players at 4 levels - ml, aaa, aa and a level but is loaded by rosters that game players produce and we can import into the game. what i am talking about is a system that is basically what ootp has or at least what the ootp game allows. i think the weakness of the present game is that minor league trading is not of much importance in the game.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/1/2006 6:02:56 AM   
donkuchi19


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I really was looking forward to multiple levels in the minors. It is almost a game breaker for me. I really enjoy the current version. But I also was looking forward to managing an entire organization, rather than just the top two levels.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/1/2006 9:19:08 PM   
waltwa

 

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another factor to consider.

there are 2 types of text based baseball sims. there is the career based game like pure sim, ootp and mogul. there is the diamond mind and som type games that are season replays. pure sim has to decide which game it will be. if it is going to be a gm game then it has to provide all the things that gm's do and that includes a 3 level minor league system that involves trading and development at all levels. while the game has a great deal of promise and, of course, improvements have to be made in all areas, it needs to have a 3 tiered minor league system.

by the way i generally play online ootp and some solo ootp play. i never fill up the minors with computer generated players but when i use roster sets provided by game players i really enjoy that the actual prospects of a real team are included. that is what really allows teams to become active in the trading market and that is a necessary ingredient of a gm game.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/4/2006 3:30:01 PM   
puresimmer

 

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Right now in PureSim 2005 with fictional players (or if you seed with real) you can have 60 players with 35 in the minors. Would making the 60-man roster size available when using real players and real rosters be an improvement from your perspective?

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/4/2006 7:50:28 PM   
KG Erwin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer

Right now in PureSim 2005 with fictional players (or if you seed with real) you can have 60 players with 35 in the minors. Would making the 60-man roster size available when using real players and real rosters be an improvement from your perspective?


Shaun, I suppose it depends on how far you want to go in the "wayback machine". For the 1940s, I see some teams that only used a total of 30-35 players for a given season. So, how do you get 60 players for the real-roster 1947 Dodgers? Would we want teams to be populated with 25 "Moonlight" Grahams?

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/4/2006 7:54:40 PM   
waltwa

 

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ultimately the fact is that puresim has to compete with ootp and mogul. both either have pretty good minor systems or at least are improving them. if you don't provide a realistic gm experience this game will suffer. i think puresim is the best in game experience of the 3 but is behind in the gm area. the problem with this is that som and diamond mind are better in-game sims so it seems that the gm area is where games like puresim have to excel.

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/5/2006 11:36:46 AM   
Tullius

 

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I agree with waltwa. It makes fun to develope players and this part of the overall experience. To have only one minor league is not ideal as Rookies play not on the same level as Veterans. If we need 4 or 5 subleagues is an other question. IMO it would be a good start to add one system for Rookies and "hopefull" players. The old High Heat system (3 levels) was also not bad. You draft every season 25 players and have to release 25 minor leaguers.

quote:

Right now in PureSim 2005 with fictional players (or if you seed with real) you can have 60 players with 35 in the minors.


Ok, but how many of these 35 minor leaguer will really play and gain experience ?

(in reply to waltwa)
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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/5/2006 5:00:51 PM   
puresimmer

 

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quote:

ultimately the fact is that puresim has to compete with ootp and mogul. both either have pretty good minor systems or at least are improving them. if you don't provide a realistic gm experience this game will suffer. i think puresim is the best in game experience of the 3 but is behind in the gm area. the problem with this is that som and diamond mind are better in-game sims so it seems that the gm area is where games like puresim have to excel.


Do you feel strat and som are better in-game because of more manager options? I want to make PureSim the best of both (GM and in-game) I don't see why I have to go one direction or the other, (besides time and resources of course). I would think that if I expanded the managerial options and added PBP I would be right there with the in-game experience of som and dm.

I'm still mulling all this over, unfortunately its already Feb!

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RE: Multiple Levels of Minors Might Get Cut from PS 2006 - 2/5/2006 6:04:03 PM   
Beach23BoyP

 

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Shaun -- these are my humble suggestions:

PS 2006
1) Add the "Baseball Reference type almanac.
2) Improve the AI and the in-game managerial options.
3) Allow us to "play-out" both our major and AAA games.
4) Allow for easier skinnning. Make it real easy for people to throw-in their own digital baseball photos and mp3 files.

PS 2006 Update in late season (Sept 2006 or so)
1) Increase the "play by play' by leaps and bounds. Allow users to help build the play by play html files (your compadre is doing just that).
2) Increase the PSPN stories using the exact same above method.

A "team of users" could help you get started on this feature in early summer.

PS 2007
1) Implement three-levels of minors.
2) Head to Head over the Internet play.

You can then retire.

(in reply to puresimmer)
Post #: 30
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