Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland

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Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland - 2/7/2006 1:31:24 AM

Dragoon 45

Posts: 435
Joined: 8/10/2004
Status: offline

I am debating on either a mini campaign or a series of linked scenario's about the Schwere Panzer Abteilung of the Gross Deutschland. I have a copy of its unit war diary. It started out as a heavy tank company in Feb of 43 with it first being committed to combat on 7 Mar 43 in Manstein's back hand to recapture Kharkov. It fought as a company through Citadel and then was re-organized as a battalion of 45 Tigers after Kursk. It is the only Heavy Tank Battalion assign permanently to a division and also never received any Tiger II's, while fighting exclusively on the Eastern Front. I have already designed two scenario's in either the campaign or series. "Recovering the Big Cats" was one and the other is getting ready for play testing.

I need some folks willing to play test these and also to help out in design work. I am especially having trouble figuring out how to portray the Tiger's mechanical weaknesses in a campaign. Any Ideas? Normally any time a Tiger unit conducted a road march they would lose at least 50% to mechanical problems during it. This prevented the massing of these fearsome tanks in most cases.

If you are interested please contact me: Dragoon_45@cox.net

Thank You.

_____________________________

Artillery always has the Right of Way

Post #: 1

RE: Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland - 2/7/2006 7:23:24 PM

MindSpy

Posts: 272
Joined: 5/13/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline

Hello.
You could adjust the vehicles rate of movement in the scenario editor.
Linked scenario's sound best since this allows you to craft only those situations that merit attention in your own opinion (hypothetical linked actions within the historical constraints), or that were historically documented. The historical events could then be treated to one or more scenario variations to help the players develop a sense of what types of strategy/ambush/fire-movement/rear-guard/supply on the run/ etc ... activity occured with these beasts in the battles.

MindSpy

(in reply to Dragoon 45)

Post #: 2

RE: Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland - 2/8/2006 10:04:50 AM

Dragoon 45

Posts: 435
Joined: 8/10/2004
Status: offline

Mind Spy, From my research stop and go movement was the worse type of movement for causing breakdowns in the Tigers. That said it was considered a minor miracle if more than half of a units Tigers completed a road movement of more than 40 km with the main body. German Planners figured on a march rate of 10 kph for daytime movement and 7 kph for night time movement for a Tiger Unit, so they could not really be considered a good choice for a mobile reserve due to their relatively slow rates of movement. Any long distance movement had to be done by special rail cars and the tanks also had to change their wide combat tracks for narrow travel tracks so they would fit on the rail cars right. "Tigers in Combat I & II" by Wolfgang Schneider contain unit war diaries of the various Schwere Panzer units formed by the Germans during the war. The recurrent theme throughout the journals is the mechanical unreliability of the monsters. In addition to mechanical breakdowns, they had problems with "self ignition" where the Tigers would catch on fire for no apparent reason and burn completely out. From what I have read I would guess that the best a Schwere Panzer unit could expect was somewhere around a 40% operational rate on their tanks. Every time they moved they broke down or less often caught on fire. Then also their was their tendency to bog down in terrain where other tanks could move because of their great weight. Also it was common for them to collapse bridges especially on the Eastern Front and or break through Ice when trying to cross a frozen river.

When they worked they were excellent weapons, but I wonder if they were actually all that effective as a combat multipler when considering their mechanical unreliability.

_____________________________

Artillery always has the Right of Way

(in reply to MindSpy)

Post #: 3

RE: Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland - 2/12/2006 2:11:26 PM

IBTyrone

Posts: 432
Joined: 7/29/2003
From: Kentucky, USA
Status: offline

Dragoon, would you believe I woke up last night thinking about your question of representing the high level of breakdown for Tigers in the game?

One possibility that I thought of that might do what you want is to adjust the terrain, i.e. use a lot of mud or swamps which will cause your Tigers to get stuck--roughly the equivalent of a breakdown--so your tank is immobilized all the same. Using Fred Chlanda's map editor, you might even be able to set a bit on the terrain to have the characteristics of mud with it appearing to be a "normal" hex. Or you could just stick with mud. If you do want to try Fred's editor, there are a few experts around here, most notably FRADAR and I know Mau Fox has worked with it. The only, albeit major, drawback is that the terrain affects not only the Tigers, but all other vehicles for both sides--but you can even control for that somewhat by using strategically placed mud.

I would really like to see you do the campaign. We don't have enough of them.

(in reply to Dragoon 45)

Post #: 4

RE: Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland - 2/12/2006 4:01:13 PM

Dragoon 45

Posts: 435
Joined: 8/10/2004
Status: offline

Right now I am trying to design a series of linked scenario's around sPA Gross Deutschland. I have four designed and in the process of play testing. Recovering the Big Cats was the first scenario I did on this theme. I haven't really gotten much feedback from the depot where I posted the scenario on how the players liked it.

The next scenario I have is about the initial commitment of the Schwere Panzer Kompanie Gross Deutschland around the Kharkov area in March of 43. This is their first combat experience with Tigers and the Kompanie was a mixed company of Tigers and Pz Mk-III's.

Then I have built a scenario around Day One of Kursk from sPA Gross Deutschland's perspective. It should be noted the sPA Gross Deutschland did not lose a single Tiger during Operation Citadelle. They had quite a few damage or breakdown, but no losses. As far as I can tell they were unique in this aspect, all other Tiger equipped units suffered at least a few total losses. And also the case can be made that Gross Deutschland had a much harder fight at Kursk than any of the other German Heavy Units. So this says a lot about the caliber of the Crews that Gross Deutschland employ in their Tigers.

The fourth scenario is about Feldwebel Rampel who won the Knight's Cross for actions on 7-8 Oct of 43 using a partially operational Tiger to stop a Soviet reinforced Tank Battalion. He destroyed at least 17 of 40 tanks and assault guns in the space of less than one hour on the 8th and the day before had stopped a number of smaller Soviet attacks in the same area.

Depending on which source you want to use, either sPA (Schwere Panzer Abteilung) 502 of Otto Carius fame or sPA Gross Deutschland was the most successful of the Heavy Tank Battalions in WW II. "TIGERS IN COMBAT I & II" by Wolfgang Schneider has the unit war diaries for just about every German Unit that employed Tigers. There is a wealth of information in these two books for scenario designers.

I must admit I have been intrigued by the Tigers. No tank on any other side inspired fear like a Tiger. But then again I can't make up my mind if the Tiger was an effective weapon or not, when considered from the angle of tactical limitations and cost effectiveness.

_____________________________

Artillery always has the Right of Way

(in reply to IBTyrone)

Post #: 5

RE: Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland - 2/12/2006 9:06:44 PM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline

IBTYRONE
I sent Dragoon45 a suggestion on how to handle the breakdown issue, and I'll restate it here for anyone else who might be thinking of something similar:

Design the campaign using only the A0 unit as the core force. Basically, design each battle as if it was a stand-alone scenario, but make all the player's units AUX except for the A0. Set the Campaign Purchase points to 200 (the typical cost of an HQ unit not using Historical Ratings/True Troop preferences) and then load the individual scenarios into the campaign matrix. Now you have a campaign that only allows the HQ unit, and one or two other minor units, if there are points left over due to True Troop being ON, to gain experience. This method gives you, the designer, the option to put as many, or as few, units at the player's disposal as you want. Think only 4 Tigers were operational for the second battle? Then only put 4 in the scenario. Maintenance worked around the clock before the next battle? Fine. Now there are 9 Tigers. Breakdowns during the road march to the next theater knocks out 5 of the 10 Tigers making the trip? No problem; only 5 tigers show up in Scenario 4.

And so on. The beauty of this method is that you can put the player in an historical setting without having to recommend a core force composition. It works extremely well on small-scale campaigns, the kind that maybe took a few days or weeks to play out in real life. My next project release was made this way: a small 4-battle campaign that looks at the defense of Baraque de Fraiture in Belgium during the Battle of the Bulge; it covers the 4-day attack by the 2nd SS Panzer against a mixed US Army force of 87th Cavalry, 82nd Airborne, and 3rd Armoured units. Playtesting has indicated that it works rather well for this type of battle, where the time between battles isn't enough to warrant repair/replacement/upgrades to the forces at hand. This method eliminates that problem, as the player will usually protect their HQ unit, and so should not lose it. There is no need, then, to provide points to repair anything, since none of the core should be damaged. However, some few points can always be assigned in case of disaster or bad decisions regarding the use of the A0 unit.

_____________________________

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RE: Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland - 2/13/2006 2:43:42 AM

Dragoon 45

Posts: 435
Joined: 8/10/2004
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Flashfyre, As I said before I believe your suggestion is worth trying. Right now I am trying to design the appropriate scenarios and then convert them to a campaign. I am trying to utilize some different things into the scenario's such as using the clearing of mines on bridges to represent the time needed for engineers to strengthen bridges to support the weight of a Tiger. Then incorporating the recovery of damaged equipment on the battlefield. Also another that is similiar to the "Using a Tiger" tutorial. Then there is also the question of how the PZ Mk-III's were integrated into the early Tiger companies, the 43A TOE. I have a lot of ideas I am playing with and not sure how many I can actually bring to fruitration. I just hope that my work will be well received.

_____________________________

Artillery always has the Right of Way

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 7

RE: Schwere Panzer Abteilung Gross Deutschland - 2/13/2006 4:13:02 PM

IBTyrone

Posts: 432
Joined: 7/29/2003
From: Kentucky, USA
Status: offline

Good suggestion, Flash. I considered doing the same thing with my "Bridge at Remagen" campaign but ended up going with a balance between force choice and forces that were provided. One of the other campaigns I am working on has the setup you suggested. It's more of a string of related scenarios tied together in a campaign format.

Dragoon,I appreciate the research, realism and attention to detail you are attempting to build into your campaign. It takes more time up front, but one of the best aspects of this game--when a scenario is done right, is getting a history lesson while you are playing. I look forward to your finished product.

(in reply to Dragoon 45)

Post #: 8

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