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Smoke and its use in SPWAW

 
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Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/9/2006 7:47:59 AM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		"I drew an assault boat to cross in, just my luck. We all tried to crawl under each other because the lead was flying around like hail" - Caption to a photograph taken by US signal corps during the Rhine crossing in the book "World War Two" by Ivan Matanale. The photo itself itself shows a bunch of grunts looking very scared and all obviously keeping as low as possible at a point where they were completely vunerable to enemy fire. The shore is obscured by smoke because during the Rhine crossing the largest ever smoke screen was put down. Did the Germans fire into it ? obviously they did.

But you cannot fire through smoke in WAW, it protects your guys like a forcefield and i think this is a very unrealistic aspect of the game. Drive up to enemy trenches, drop a smoke grenade and you could have a tea party there even if a tiger was 100 yards away on the other side, why because the tiger cannot fire through it. Smoke is not cover its an obscurant to line of sight, only terrain can provide cover on a dangerous battlefield.
Some say you cannot target through smoke and they are right thats why there is the "area fire" feature but it doesn't work against smoke (for some reason). In SPcamo games MBT &WW2 long range shots through smoke frequently fall short or fly long of the target hex because targetting is impossible but the ability is still there. Similarly smoke would'nt protect you against a SIG or MG42 at 150 yards on a football field or other flat ground, only conceal you while you took cover and thats its true use. Its not a force field. Anyway artillery always fires at things that are obscured from vision and can land rounds behind smoke screens so why not other weapons.
I have raised this point before but others defended the smoke force field saying it was there because the Ai cannot use area fire and this would unbalance play. If thats true then perhaps the Ai is the issue here not the smoke. Why fudge reality (and physics) just to compensate for a problem the computer has, two wrongs do not make it right. You would'nt wan't tanks to fly just because the AI uses them poorly would you ?
And what about those who play Pbem and online games like myself who have to live with the problem.

If you like the feature try lighting a fire and standing behind the smoke while someone shoots his Magnum at you... please report back with your findings. Did you stand there cooly smoking a cigarette (ala WAW) or are you writing from hospital bed. I would suspect the latter is far more likely

I'm hoping Mike reads this, please consider area fire through smoke if you are still working on the code. Any chances ?
I'm interested what others think
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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/9/2006 9:39:28 AM   
Major_Mess


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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/9/2006 11:37:48 AM   
Korpraali V


Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Rough, but true.

Couple years ago I was visiting one of the Salpa -line fortification (Finnish last defenceline which was build after the Winter war. It was never used). There I was shown how you can fire 'accurately' through smoke screen: FO in the front somewhere. Clear phoneline to the fort. Both the fort and the FO got same maps with clear markings on them: The area was divided to small sectors and every sector was given certain coordinates. Then in the fort next to MG or gun was those same markings on the wall. And according to FOs orders the MG/gun was directed to area where the support was needed.

This may be an extreme example, but in this case the smoke harmed the accurate shooting only slightly.

Of course through smoke was shooted, I think that's not the real question. The real question may be how the AI could be teached to shoot through the smoke too...

However I may be wrong. Just a thoughts... (But good question.)

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/9/2006 8:23:53 PM   
Gloo

 

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From: Chapelle-Guillaume
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

...The real question may be how the AI could be teached to shoot through the smoke too...


Pretty simple! The same way it does against seen targets... with a malus!!

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/10/2006 8:30:25 AM   
soldier

 

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quote:

The real question may be how the AI could be teached to shoot through the smoke too...


I'm not sure that it would be of benefit to teach the AI to be encouraged to shoot through smoke as I don't necessarily think its always a very good tactic (mostly a waste of ammo and a way of giving up your position) but it does have some uses, especially with heavy assault guns vs troops at close range. The main reason i advocate the ability is becuase current system is total fantasy and very very gamey. It blocks up open ground with forcefields and offers cover where there is none. It wouldn't really hurt those troops that are retreating behind smoke because fire against them is already halved in effectiveness, mainly it would discourages driving up to front lines with fresh troops and dropping smoke as a shield (a totally bogus tactic, smoke was not used like this). This as well as op fire against unloading to troops would take SPWAW to new heights of fun IMHO.
I guess if the Ai could be taught to area fire at a position which was causing trouble then it could also be taught to fire through smoke (if possible).
I mainly hope it is implemented for 2 player, pbem or online games. Maybe if the situation got too dangerous, you might actually have to fall back or USE SMOKE TO HIDE YOUR RETREAT. Falling back was considered one of the most dangerous operations.
Imagine that... actually using some "real tactics" in WAW, how cool would that be.

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/10/2006 5:05:59 PM   
azraelck

 

Posts: 581
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Real tactics??? In a GAME? Preposterous!

While I don't think you could accurately fire through smoke to the hexes beyond; I do think it should be an option. MG rounds coming from beyond the smokey mists would be great for suppression; as while you can't see to really aim for them; they can't see you either, and wil only get a bead on your general direction. Of course, it will have to work both ways to be accurate.

RE: Op fire in beach landings.

I haven't noticed a lack of fire; just a lack of accurate fire against my boats. While I'm not sure on the historical values and such; I am sure that more than 1 boat was lost on D Day, at any of the beach landings. I'm sure other beach landings against fortified locations were similar. I've always had come under fire, but I would maybe lose a squad or a truck. They don't even drop the tanks or other vehicles really.

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/10/2006 7:41:05 PM   
chief


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From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		azraelck:
Ur loss of 1 boat could be representative of say maybe 20 or 200 losses in the real invasion of Normandy. The game scale only allows a portion of the invasion numbers to be shown.....Hope this helps.

I for one would love to see a one-to-one representation, but that will never happen, heck my screen size is just to small (hehehe), come to think of it my Harddrive would have to be humungeous just for the infantry portion. I gues in the neighborhood of tetra bits.
FWIW dept #37,856

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/10/2006 8:25:48 PM   
FNG


Posts: 514
Joined: 1/3/2002
From: Devizes, UK
Status: offline 		A "feature" that I have spotted:

If you Z-fire into a hex within LOS which subsequently gets smoked, hitting 'F' will continue to put down area fire onto the target hex, as long as you have not targeted/fired at another unit since the last Z-fire (or moved if the firer is non-vehicular).

So you can fire through smoke, sort of, in very limited circumstances.

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/11/2006 12:44:47 AM   
Swamprat


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From: Shrewsbury UK
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quote:

mainly it would discourages driving up to front lines with fresh troops and dropping smoke as a shield (a totally bogus tactic, smoke was not used like this). This as well as op fire against unloading to troops would take SPWAW to new heights of fun IMHO.



Sounds like you've been playing the same players as me. Or perhaps this is a tactic that has spread like the vile disease it is.

I do find it annoying enough though that if every PBEM opponent I played against played like this I would probably grow tired of playing SPWAW altogether. It does remove the fun and realism that usually places this game on a pedastal above all others. If the computer used this tactic I bet smoke would have been addressed PDQ!

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/11/2006 3:13:48 AM   
azraelck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chief

azraelck:
Ur loss of 1 boat could be representative of say maybe 20 or 200 losses in the real invasion of Normandy. The game scale only allows a portion of the invasion numbers to be shown.....Hope this helps.

I for one would love to see a one-to-one representation, but that will never happen, heck my screen size is just to small (hehehe), come to think of it my Harddrive would have to be humungeous just for the infantry portion. I gues in the neighborhood of tetra bits.
FWIW dept #37,856

I always viewed it as my taking command of a sector of the beach, rather than the entire beach. After all, I am not leading a division, but a battalion; and in the case of the US landings at normandy, there were three Infantry divisions. Two at Omaha, one at Utah, IIRC.

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/11/2006 7:59:52 AM   
soldier

 

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quote:

Sounds like you've been playing the same players as me. Or perhaps this is a tactic that has spread like the vile disease it is.

I do find it annoying enough though that if every PBEM opponent I played against played like this I would probably grow tired of playing SPWAW altogether. It does remove the fun and realism that usually places this game on a pedastal above all others. If the computer used this tactic I bet smoke would have been addressed PDQ!

Many players use it because it offers advantages but its still fantasy. Some players even stack up on Sp mortars and Support tanks to fire their unlimited rounds (no shot counts on smoke ), bottlling you up behind their smoke barricade while they advance for the kill unhindered. They even fire more smoke than explosive ammo. I'd be happy to play them if the unreastic routine was fixed but i refuse to use such unhistorical and laughable tractics to achieve a win (it would bring me no satisfaction). I'm always cool with losing a fair and square fight and pay my respects to the victors.

Of course AI PLAYERS here could't care less because the corrupt routine suites them fine. It would be a very DIFFERENT STORY if every enemy AI dropped smoke before bieng shot at or after the first foley,...Imagine the upproar then

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/11/2006 8:50:41 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Soldier, I fail to understand your endless griping on this subject. The AI WILL use smoke rounds prior to an assault, and WILL use smoke to cover a retreat.

As for its use in PBEM, you can elect NOT to use it. We asked Michael about this, and the game code uses smoke as an abstracted routine. Guys under fire are gonna disperse and duck behind whatever cover they can find, thus making them more difficult to hit. Simply hitting the deck can do this.

The "gaminess" aspect is left up to the gamers.



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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/11/2006 2:34:05 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
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From: Shrewsbury UK
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quote:

Soldier, I fail to understand your endless griping on this subject

That's not surprising.



Soldier, one possible half remedy is to up the vis of a battle. I beleive there's a debate on visibility, with some complaining that vis above 24 allows one to see through smoke and single clumps of trees. I know one proponent of lower vis likes his smoke.

Raise the vis to 30 and infantry smoke on an open plain won't block vis. In terrain like long grass, it does block vis more, which is reasonable. When combined with terrain, infantry smoke does cast long shadows that you can retreat behind but won't allow a unit to just sit out an opponent's turn invisible until advancing again the next move.
The only snag is that two infantry smoke shells combined will be a forcefield again, but at least it uses up the limited supply of smoke grenades.
They're not going to change the code on this, so it's probably the only solution for PBEM, apart from having a long list of boycotted players.

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/11/2006 11:30:33 PM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
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quote:

Soldier, one possible half remedy is to up the vis of a battle. I beleive there's a debate on visibility, with some complaining that vis above 24 allows one to see through smoke and single clumps of trees. I know one proponent of lower vis likes his smoke.

Unfortunatley higher visiblity allows you to shoot through trees but not smoke shells... now that is crazy


quote:

We asked Michael about this, and the game code uses smoke as an abstracted routine


Why ?
I must have missed the discussion, either way i prefer accurate representation rather than an abstract version of reality. SPCAMO's Windows WW2 will feature area fire through smoke, op fire against unloading troops with loading penalties and as such should be a much more realistic representation of combat in WW2. SPWAW will still unfortunatley lack these features

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/11/2006 11:44:53 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		So, you started this thread just to state what you dislike about SPWaW?

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/12/2006 12:19:09 AM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		No not all
I was hoping to include a feature that could improve the game = area fire through smoke
The current system disregards natural physics and is easily exploited in pbem. Yes your right, gaminess is left up to the players but many people are not honest so I don't have much faith in an "honour system" and would prefer not to rely on it. Play as many pbems as i have and you'll see what i mean. Man i have played some guys that just won't move without firing smoke everywhere (and it doesn't drain shots ? ). Naturally i don't play them anymore.

I don't bring this up just to complain or cause trouble. I'm just looking for ways to improve the game. WAW is my favourite game

< Message edited by soldier -- 2/12/2006 12:20:47 AM >

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/12/2006 1:06:51 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
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From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		The smoke issue has been gone over repeatedly. While I agree that MBT and WW2 allow a more realistic approach to combat using smoke, Matrix has stated that it would require major programming work to implement. That's something they cannot do with the numerous other games they are working on. The ones that will pay the bills as opposed to a free game. Can't blame them for that choice.


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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/12/2006 11:58:26 AM   
FNG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

So, you started this thread just to state what you dislike about SPWaW?


For a guy who posts an inordinate amount of rambling, self-obsessed crap on these forums, you have some serious issues with what the word 'forum' means. I share a lot of your views on Matrix and SPWaW, but don't let them blind me to genuine discussion about genuine issues.


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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/13/2006 8:21:48 AM   
soldier

 

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quote:

The smoke issue has been gone over repeatedly. While I agree that MBT and WW2 allow a more realistic approach to combat using smoke, Matrix has stated that it would require major programming work to implement. That's something they cannot do with the numerous other games they are working on. The ones that will pay the bills as opposed to a free game. Can't blame them for that choice.


There was at least one unit that could fire through smoke in the game, the Panther Uhu but unfortunately its infra red ability allows it to spot and target units beyond the mist. This is definately not the answer (infra red should only allow night targetting anyway)

Ok so the routines cannot be changed (fair enough) and as usual KG Erwin frowns upon any discussion on something that is poorly moddeled in the game.
How about other options to limit the force field effects
1 : How about the ability to edit smoke rounds in the editor
Every foot unit (from every country) has it, even conscripts and Phillipino Guerillas (armed only with bow and arrow) have smoke grenades. How is it allocated ?
2 : Firing smoke rounds should be subjected to shot count rules like all other ammo types and cost action points
Any vehicle can expend its full firing quota but then go on to fire smoke unlimited times. All other ammo has this restriction so why not smoke (obviously retreat smoke is exempt).
3 : Can it be made to disperse quicker. The manual mentions wind and drift but the player has no control (unless playing in a thunderstorm or rain) One smoke grenade can block LOS and firepower across a whole 50 yard hex for 3 turns while tank discharge blocks 150 yards - This is extreme
Can the effects be toned down somewhat or more acurately portrayed if the force field aspect must remain


< Message edited by soldier -- 2/13/2006 8:47:31 AM >

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/13/2006 8:40:18 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		1- That ability already exists, in the scenario editor. Would be nice to have the option of assigning number of smoke rounds/grenades in the OOB editor!

2- Agreed! this was mentioned to Mike during the list of suggested changes, hopefully he will fix it coming up here...

3- Dunno... Sometimes it disperses very quickly (like the next turn the enemy is shooting you through it), and other times it will last 5 or more turns, it seems. Good question.



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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/15/2006 10:30:15 AM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
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From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		It's sad that this smoke problem will probably never be corrected in SPWaW, though it's understandable that Matrix guys are concentrating into non-freeware projects.

So the question is: is there anything, that a regular player can do about the smoke? Are there some parameters that control the smoke dispersion time, that one could access with hex editor? :)

At the moment I'm just so pissed about this smoke issue, since it really ruins a lot of PBEM-games, these are the most usual cases that I have encountered:

- Rendering a pillbox useless, one smoke round from 81mm mortar is enough and the pillbox is already bypassed by the enemy when the smoke has despersed. Wow, you can fire probably once or twice and after that, you can kiss those ~100 points goodbye. Actually, any ambush, by any unit, can be rendered useless totally by one or two smoke rounds...like a couple of infantry smoke grenades would really do that! Where are the instances that a couple of 105/150mm guns would hold up even bigger military units??

- Gamey tactics of driving Jeep + scout / APC + infantry / whatever close to LOS of enemy unit (let's say: a German Sturmtiger) and render his firing sector totally useless with a single smoke grenade. Gee, that 380mm rocket won't penetrate smoke at all and the enemy units can have a barbeque party some 200 yards behind that magic curtain. You really should be able to are fire through that smoke...that 380mm rocket would just do wonderful damage even though not being fired at a specific target.

- Co-operation between Uhu Panthers and mortar APCs: fire some smoke shells (direct fire) to the hilltop and drive your Uhus behind that smoke screen. Wow, you can target and engage all enemy units without being fired at. This way you can run around the battlefield, dropping smoke in front of enemy path and just sit behind some smoke random puffs and kill everything. Smoke simply blocks the LOS too easily.

Most of these problems would be gone, if this smoke issue would be corrected. Of course, people would still be inventing new, gamey, tactics, but these smoke-related problems are really pain in the backside at the moment.

Oh well, maybe I just have edit the OOBs and remove infantry smoke grenades (almost) totally and reduce the amount of smoke grenades from indirect artillery units...or something like that.

Oh, it would also be nice to be able to reverse with tanks...;)

-Colonel von Blitz-

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/18/2006 4:32:03 AM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		You can't change the effectiveness of smoke. However, if you are making a scenario you can change how long it lasts. This is not scientific though. What I have noticed is that using certain combinations of visibility (higher) and weather (wind/rain) results in the smoke disappearing after 2/3 turns, rather than the default 6 months ;)

I believe that the smoke thing was put into the game to prevent infantry units from receiving excessive fire on the opposing player's turn. In other words, it is there as a hack to remove them from the line of fire after they have retreated.


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Post #: 22
RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/18/2006 4:33:55 AM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
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From: England
Status: offline 		BTW you can't change the amount of smoke ammo by editing the OOBs. It is derived from the unit class.


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Post #: 23
RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/18/2006 6:23:17 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		To Captain Cruft: By God, I take out EVERY bunker I encounter. Just ask Afrika Korps.

Yes, I DO protect my infantry with smoke, and I don't apologize for it. If you wanna question me on that, by god, I'll back it up with flame. How the hell would you expect the "corkscrew and blowtorch" method to work without the benefit of armor support unless liberal use of smoke was used? The Marines were brave, but they weren't stupid.

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/18/2006 6:31:58 AM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
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From: Rhode Island
Status: offline 		you die maline! Well, maybe not.

Smoke has its uses in SPWAW that I consider "legit". Outlined in some posts in this thread are the more, shall I say, creative uses of smoke. Gunny used his smoke well...

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RE: Smoke and its use in SPWAW - 2/20/2006 9:30:05 AM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft
You can't change the effectiveness of smoke. However, if you are making a scenario you can change how long it lasts.


That's the problem, because I mainly play PBEM games and it's quite hard to always get people to play with some other OOBs that the original This would not be a problem if I would only play against AI, because then I could mod my OOBs freely.

-Colonel von Blitz-

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