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RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/11/2006 10:55:04 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.


While it is of course prefectly ok for you to do this in your game .. I would suggest that if it turns out ( as it seems that it will ) that massed DDs can overwhelm any and all opposition and "clear the seas" .. then we will need to look at fixing that. If this tactic really was the be-all end-all naval tactic ... I imagine the real navies would've discovered it and acted accordingly. Certainly the WWII battle of Java Sea which saw the Japanese launching massive torpedo attacks ( which were not decisive ) and Jutland which also saw DDs attempting to perform there mission in a fleet action are not indicative of the "DDs will smash all" concept. At Suraigo straits, there is a bit more of a case, but the manuver room for the Japanese ships was very resticted. So I at least start from a position of scepticism as to whether this tactic would work as well as it seems to in real life.

But I have noticed that it is unwise to risk Japanese BBs against US DDs in the PI early on ... send in the "expendables" was my concept in the current game. In the mean time I've tried to "train up" the BBs to get them to the point where in a night action that are more or less equal to the DDs ( in exp ). But based on your results, this might not help enough. And if it comes down to a "battle between the DDs" .. the USN has that one won before it starts. The Japanese are out numbered about 5:1 in real DDs from the start ... and it doesn't get any better.

So you may have found a "system breaker" .. but it can probably be fixed by reducing the power of the DDD torpedoes. That is probably where I'd start. But for now continue on ... let's watch some more examples and see if this seems to be confirmed.



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Post #: 31
July 27 1922 - 2/11/2006 10:56:31 PM   
Rysyonok


Posts: 2138
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		San Jose Courier, July 27, 1922

IJN SS No. 28 eats 6 depth charges and catches on fire near Baker island.





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Post #: 32
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/11/2006 11:02:06 PM   
Rysyonok


Posts: 2138
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.


While it is of course prefectly ok for you to do this in your game .. I would suggest that if it turns out ( as it seems that it will ) that massed DDs can overwhelm any and all opposition and "clear the seas" .. then we will need to look at fixing that. If this tactic really was the be-all end-all naval tactic ... I imagine the real navies would've discovered it and acted accordingly. Certainly the WWII battle of Java Sea which saw the Japanese launching massive torpedo attacks ( which were not decisive ) and Jutland which also saw DDs attempting to perform there mission in a fleet action are not indicative of the "DDs will smash all" concept. At Suraigo straits, there is a bit more of a case, but the manuver room for the Japanese ships was very resticted. So I at least start from a position of scepticism as to whether this tactic would work as well as it seems to in real life.

But I have noticed that it is unwise to risk Japanese BBs against US DDs in the PI early on ... send in the "expendables" was my concept in the current game. In the mean time I've tried to "train up" the BBs to get them to the point where in a night action that are more or less equal to the DDs ( in exp ). But based on your results, this might not help enough. And if it comes down to a "battle between the DDs" .. the USN has that one won before it starts. The Japanese are out numbered about 5:1 in real DDs from the start ... and it doesn't get any better.

So you may have found a "system breaker" .. but it can probably be fixed by reducing the power of the DDD torpedoes. That is probably where I'd start. But for now continue on ... let's watch some more examples and see if this seems to be confirmed.


=) If what I am going is going to make the scenario better, then why not :)

But seriously, what other options do I have? I got no CAs. And my AKs are so few in numbers I can barely keep my bases in supply... I know I am getting a whole bunch of them in a few months though.

And Great White Fleet is *still* being repaired... once I saw no progress done anymore in San Diego (the damage numbers froze) I moved the ships to Mare Island... let's see if it helps.

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Post #: 33
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/11/2006 11:03:31 PM   
Pkunzipper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

Where did you find the MLE? In Cautionaries there's an AS in Manila, that's all.

And thank you :) I would have done even better had I not placed all starting subs in that region in one hex. Needless to say, all my consecutive games have no more than 1 SS in a hex. Plus, it's all in the numbers: every single American sub, save for H's, is in the Philippines. I am bound to score some hits :) (and lost every third on the voyage home once the islands fall altogether and I can't resupply them, but that's a totally different matter)


Perhaps we are playing 2 different versions of Cautionaries (mine is 1.4).
USA starts the game with a MLE in Manila and "only" 13 subs in Manila (a lot more is based in the West Coast)...
Maybe Jwilkerson can say something abotu this...

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Post #: 34
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/11/2006 11:04:28 PM   
Rysyonok


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Status: offline 		P.S. Japanese were asking for it in the second battle though. All of my DDs were on ASW missions - not reacting to enemy fleets.

P.P.S. Only 4 of 7 squadrons engaged.

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Post #: 35
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/11/2006 11:05:57 PM   
Rysyonok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pkunzipper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

Where did you find the MLE? In Cautionaries there's an AS in Manila, that's all.

And thank you :) I would have done even better had I not placed all starting subs in that region in one hex. Needless to say, all my consecutive games have no more than 1 SS in a hex. Plus, it's all in the numbers: every single American sub, save for H's, is in the Philippines. I am bound to score some hits :) (and lost every third on the voyage home once the islands fall altogether and I can't resupply them, but that's a totally different matter)


Perhaps we are playing 2 different versions of Cautionaries (mine is 1.4).
USA starts the game with a MLE in Manila and "only" 13 subs in Manila (a lot more is based in the West Coast)...
Maybe Jwilkerson can say something abotu this...


I have 1.3... no MLE. So I had no regrets when I threw DMs into battle.

And yup, you got it :) I sent all my West Coast subs into PI. Is it paying off? :)

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Post #: 36
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/11/2006 11:14:46 PM   
Pkunzipper


Posts: 237
Joined: 5/21/2002
Status: offline 		Your SS are doing a great job!
Hope mine will behave like yours! But currently they got only a couple of MSW and an AK... only dud against warships...
Well, war is all but over!

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Post #: 37
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/12/2006 12:12:23 AM   
Rysyonok


Posts: 2138
Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.


While it is of course prefectly ok for you to do this in your game .. I would suggest that if it turns out ( as it seems that it will ) that massed DDs can overwhelm any and all opposition and "clear the seas" .. then we will need to look at fixing that. If this tactic really was the be-all end-all naval tactic ... I imagine the real navies would've discovered it and acted accordingly. Certainly the WWII battle of Java Sea which saw the Japanese launching massive torpedo attacks ( which were not decisive ) and Jutland which also saw DDs attempting to perform there mission in a fleet action are not indicative of the "DDs will smash all" concept. At Suraigo straits, there is a bit more of a case, but the manuver room for the Japanese ships was very resticted. So I at least start from a position of scepticism as to whether this tactic would work as well as it seems to in real life.


Something to consider... it takes 44 DDs to fast transport just one regiment of Hawaiian division. That's excluding supplies. Did I mention that by the time the last DD loads troops the first one is going to be out of fuel? =)

It look like DDs can do an excellent job on small islands, but it's still APs for major bases.

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Post #: 38
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/12/2006 12:24:54 AM   
Rysyonok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pkunzipper
Your SS are doing a great job!
Hope mine will behave like yours! But currently they got only a couple of MSW and an AK... only dud against warships...
Well, war is all but over!


Did you remember to go through the captains and choose 85+/85+ only for those submarines?

Let's look at the pre-game line-up:

S-3 Warder Naval 70 Aggression 50
S-4 Murphy Naval 60 Aggression 58
S-6 Willingham Naval 73 Aggression 57

Let's look at my line-up:

S-3 O'Kane Naval 90 Aggression 91 - 4 hits; had to be docked for a couple weeks due to damage, however
S-4 Fluckey Naval 87 Aggression 86 - 6 hits
S-6 Cutter Naval 84 Aggression 83 - 5 hit


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Post #: 39
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/12/2006 2:28:51 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
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From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

Following this success I am seriously considering invasion of Marianas strictly off of DDs. 70-80 at a time backed by MSWs.


While it is of course prefectly ok for you to do this in your game .. I would suggest that if it turns out ( as it seems that it will ) that massed DDs can overwhelm any and all opposition and "clear the seas" .. then we will need to look at fixing that. If this tactic really was the be-all end-all naval tactic ... I imagine the real navies would've discovered it and acted accordingly. Certainly the WWII battle of Java Sea which saw the Japanese launching massive torpedo attacks ( which were not decisive ) and Jutland which also saw DDs attempting to perform there mission in a fleet action are not indicative of the "DDs will smash all" concept. At Suraigo straits, there is a bit more of a case, but the manuver room for the Japanese ships was very resticted. So I at least start from a position of scepticism as to whether this tactic would work as well as it seems to in real life.


Something to consider... it takes 44 DDs to fast transport just one regiment of Hawaiian division. That's excluding supplies. Did I mention that by the time the last DD loads troops the first one is going to be out of fuel? =)

It look like DDs can do an excellent job on small islands, but it's still APs for major bases.


Fast transporting anything larger than a battalion should probably be questioned. And the distance should be very short, 1-2 days max.



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Post #: 40
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/12/2006 2:34:01 AM   
Rysyonok


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Status: offline 		Well, American divisions don't split down that low :p And I'd say a day. Clemson has 3 days worth of range I recall... so a day to sail, a day to wait to be able to unload at night, a day to get back...

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Post #: 41
July 28 1922 - 2/12/2006 4:55:10 AM   
Rysyonok


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USN SS H-8 hits ML Kuroshima Maru (Torpedo hits 1) northwest of Mili. This is bad news; I did not expect that part of Marshalls to be mined.

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Post #: 42
RE: July 22, 1922 - 2/12/2006 5:47:31 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

Well, American divisions don't split down that low :p And I'd say a day. Clemson has 3 days worth of range I recall... so a day to sail, a day to wait to be able to unload at night, a day to get back...


Right, hence American Divisions should be riding on AP !

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Post #: 43
July 29, 1922 - 2/12/2006 12:18:57 PM   
Rysyonok


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USN SS S-2 gets its third kill - AK Kinugasa Maru (Torpedo hits 1, on fire) near San Marcelino.

USN SS S-16 gets its second kill - AK Sansho Maru (Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage) south of Hong Kong.

< Message edited by Rysyonok -- 2/12/2006 9:53:21 PM >

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Post #: 44
July 30, 1922 - 2/12/2006 10:04:11 PM   
Rysyonok


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USN SS R-12 scores its third hit south of Hong Kong: AK Sansho Maru (Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage). The ship sinks.

USN SS R-9 hits AK Kosei Maru (Torpedo hits 1, on fire). The ship escapes.

Japanese ships spotted in Taytay and off San Marcelino, potentially going for San Jose.

Japanese convoys always try to dodge once they get hit by subs - but how do you dodge a 6x3 submarine formation?

< Message edited by Rysyonok -- 2/13/2006 5:00:31 AM >

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Post #: 45
July 31, 1922 - 2/13/2006 5:00:53 AM   
Rysyonok


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61st Japanese ship sinks: AK Akiura Maru. After three torpedoes, all from different subs, it's about time.

USN SS R-11 gets its second hit: AP Africa Maru (Torpedo hits 1) west of Bataan. No bodies - not an invasion force. Too far south - not a Singapore supply run. What is it?

USN SS H-8 gets its second hit: AP Denmark Maru (Torpedo hits 1, 23 casualties reported) northwest of Baker Island.This is either very bad - Baker has nothing to repel invaders, three engineering teams don't count - or very good - my 80 DDs stacked in Baker need to earn their pay. I'll know more tomorrow as I sent three squads to intercept.

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Post #: 46
August 1, 1922 - 2/13/2006 7:35:51 AM   
Rysyonok


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62nd Japanese ship sinks: AK Kosei Maru.

IJN SS No. 30 gets hit by 2 depth charges near Johnston Island.

IJN TF northwest of Baker Island escapes unnoticed.

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Post #: 47
August 2, 1922 - 2/14/2006 3:18:46 AM   
Rysyonok


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USN SS S-32 hits AP Meiko Maru (Torpedo hits 1, 29 casualties reported) just north of Luzon. The Great Submarine Barrier is up and kicking... I keep waiting for IJN to use the southern route, through Legaspi - I do have 2 SS in place, down from 5-9 depending on a week in the past - but they are yet to do so.

USN SS S-17 earns its 4th hit: TK Akatsuki Maru (Shell hits 5, on fire) just off Kagoshima. Gotta love those 1-2 SS Home Island runs.

IJN SS No. 45 sinks AP West Point (Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage, 268 casualties reported) just east of Johnston island. A good third of Battle Fleet HQ went down. As a partial unit, it will rebuild eventually... but this is the deadliest IJN SS attack to date.

15th and 31st US Regiments land in Taytay. I bet IJA was surprised.




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August 3, 1922 - 2/14/2006 5:34:54 AM   
Rysyonok


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2 IJN DDs hit a minefield at Mili, Marshall Islands: DD Ayanami (Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage), DD Isonami (Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage). Isn't it amazing what a tiny yet strategically placed field of 190 mines can do? Three USN squads sent to investigate.

USN R-21 gets its third hit: AK Junpo Maru (Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage, 152 casualties reported) at San Jose. That's 4th Naval Construction Bn running away from Taytay. IJN has shown an amazing capability of transporting seemingly doomed IJA units right under Americans' noses, but I guess one can't compete with submarine blankets... The ship sinks; another transport saves some of the soldiers.

US Army captures Taytay. IJA - apparently a few disabled squads - retreats south. Sadly, the base is barren; there is no fuel left. This forces the American regiments to march further down to Puerto Princessa. Unless a new fuel supply can be found very soon, all USN personnel will leave the PI.

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August 4, 1922 - 2/14/2006 6:49:48 AM   
Rysyonok


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Third hit for USN SS S-7: AK Risen Maru (Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage) off Bataan.

IJN MLE barely escapes being hit by USN SS S-34 off Eniwetok.

High attrition forces 15th and 31st Regiments to camp in Taytay.

Extremely slow repairs on USN battleships, e.g. USN Nevada, force Battle Fleet HQ to reject proposed refits of battleships with onboard aircraft, previously scheduled for spring of '23. Merchant fleet refits, scheduled for January '23, are also under scrutiny.

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Post #: 50
August 5, 1922 - 2/15/2006 2:34:10 AM   
Rysyonok


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Status: offline 		Japanese land in Taytay - pinning down 15th and 31st US - and in San Jose. The future of submarine warfare is looking grim.

The good news is that AS Rainbow made it to Roxas and for the first time in 8 days I was able to resupply torpedoes - I had 9 empty submarines waiting for them.

Third hit for USN SS R-23: AK Risen Maru (Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage) near Bataan. The ship sinks immediately.

IJN DD Momo catches a mine near Bataan (Mine hits 1, on fire).

IJN DD Isonami sinks from a mine caught two days ago in the Marshalls region IJN YTD losses: 66.

IJN SS No. 35 barely escapes 4 back-to-back ASW attacks near Johnston island.

USN SS S-34 hits ML Ninoshima Maru (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage; then again - ML Ninoshima Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) in Eniwetok harbor.

USN SS S-17 gets its "ace" strips - the fifth sub with 5+ hits! - slamming AP Chowa Maru (Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage) right across Tsukiji Fish Market in Downtown Tokyo. Gotta love those long-range raids - I bet all IJN BBs will be docked for the next 3 days.

USN has major difficulty supplying Baker with fuel. 3 sunk TKs + long distance + 80 hungry DDs = shortages.

After prolonged struggle all hope is abandoned for USN DD Reno and it's scuttled, 3rd USN casualty of 2nd Baker battle. USN YTD losses: 56.

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August 6, 1922 - 2/16/2006 3:39:08 AM   
Rysyonok


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Status: offline 		AP Chowa Maru sinks in Tokyo Harbor, yesterday's victim of a sub attack. IJN YTD losses: 67.

7th hit for USN SS S-4:
quote:

Sub attack near Taytay at 39,53
Japanese Ships
AP Ceylon Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kashi
Allied Ships
SS S-4, hits 1


1st Cav takes some losses just before arriving to Pearl Harbor:
quote:

Sub attack at 114,68
Japanese Ships
SS U-46 (O2)
Allied Ships
AP President Coolidge, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
PC Eagle 7
PC Eagle 6
Allied ground losses:
38 casualties reported


More indecisive combat in Taytay, although Americans are clearly losing.

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Post #: 52
August 7, 1922 - 2/16/2006 6:29:10 AM   
Rysyonok


Posts: 2138
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		IJN DD Ayanami sinks in the Marshalls, victim of Mili's minefield. IJN YTD losses: 68.

4th hit for USN SS S-2:
quote:

Sub attack at 43,49
Japanese Ships
TK Itsukushima Maru, Shell hits 3, on fire
Allied Ships
SS S-2



1st Cav takes even more losses before arriving to Pearl Harbor:
quote:

Sub attack near Pearl Harbor at 112,68
Japanese Ships
SS UB-143 (O7)
Allied Ships
AP W.A. Holbrook, Torpedo hits 1
PC Eagle 7
PC Eagle 6
Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported

+

TF 1085 encounters mine field at Molokai (113,68)
Allied Ships
AP President Johnson, (Japanese) Mine hits 1
Allied ground losses:
24 casualties reported

Minesweepers are immediately dispatched and all of Pearl Harbor airforce - 80+ planes - sent to hunt for IJN subs.

More indecisive combat in Taytay.

USN DD Evans hits an American mine at Mili and catches on fire.

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Post #: 53
August 8, 1922 - 2/17/2006 2:40:12 AM   
Rysyonok


Posts: 2138
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		IJN AP Ceylon Maru sinks in PI, victim of USN SS S-4. IJN YTD losses: 69. Now, why couldn't it sink while it still had a chunk of 13th division on board?

USN SS R-10 delivers its second blow to IJN: AO Muroto (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) in southern PI. Now, there's a sub that doesn't go for minor targets; its first was CL Yahagi.. What I want to know, is how come IJN is swimming right past Roxas, an untouched USN base? And when is empty San Jose going to be attacked? 4th Naval Construction Bn of IJA has been sitting there for a few days now without moving.

3rd hit for USN SS R-11 next to Bataan: TK Itsukushima Maru (Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage).

2nd hit for USN SS R-24 next to Bataan: TK Jinei (Torpedo hits 1, on fire)

USN DDs plant a depth charge in IJN SS No. 38 at Mili.

IJN-laid minefield at Molokai is cleaned up - DD Perry personally catches the last mine. The wrong way, of course. I wonder if it will ever get fixed now.

Another DD damaged at Baker is starting to take on water beyond what the present AR can deal with. If sunk, it will be the 4th USN casualty in that battle. 70 USN DDs attack 8 outdated Japanese hulks at night, engaging in torpedofest, and still lose 4? There's something terribly wrong with that picture.

More indecisive skirmishing at Taytay.

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Post #: 54
August 9, 1922 - 2/17/2006 4:12:51 AM   
Rysyonok


Posts: 2138
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Status: offline 		IJN AO Muroto sinks in PI, victim of USN R-10. IJN YTD losses: 70. What was it doing all the way by Iloilo, without escort?

US Army aircraft attacks one of IJN subs in Pearl Harbor but misses.

IJN SS No. 19 hits DD Crosby (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) at Johnston. Sys 53. Ouch.

IJA takes Taytay.




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Post #: 55
USN Most damaged ships - 2/17/2006 4:18:55 AM   
Rysyonok


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Status: offline 		9 of 12 DDs listed got damaged by IJN surface ships at Baker. It was a costly win, after all...




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Post #: 56
August 10, 1922 - 2/18/2006 3:30:16 AM   
Rysyonok


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More IJA troops land at San Jose.

4th hit for USN SS R-25 near San Jose: AP Ryoyu Maru #21 (Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage). Sank immediately, 71st casualty of IJN.

IJN SS U-55 (O3) eats four depth charges at Mili and catches on fire.

IJN SS No. 62 attacks an American convoy right off Baker Island: AK Georgian (Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage). With 93 flotation damage, the transport is scuttled. 57th casualty of USN.

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Post #: 57
August 11, 1922 - 2/18/2006 3:35:09 AM   
Rysyonok


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Lots of IJN activity in PI.

IJN SS UC-90 (O4) eats a depth charge at Mili. IJN has three subs at that atoll? More practice for USN...

USN SS R-25 is the sixth submarine with "ace" strips (5+ hits inflicting damage): DD Tade (Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage) near San Jose.

2nd hit for USN SS R-3 right off Bataan: AP Gokoku Maru (Torpedo hits 1)

IJA takes San Jose.

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Post #: 58
Hail for the subs - 2/18/2006 3:42:26 AM   
Rysyonok


Posts: 2138
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		They may not be as graceful as dreadnaughts...

...but I'd take one over anything else.

(USN SS R-12)




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Post #: 59
August 12, 1922 - 2/18/2006 4:21:22 PM   
Rysyonok


Posts: 2138
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Status: offline 		August 12, 1922

IJN TK Itsukushima Maru sinks. An old victim of R-11 and 72nd IJN casualty.

IJN SS UB-143 (O7) catches 2 depth charges east of Pearl Harbor - both hit - and catches on fire.

A lot of activity near Mili and San Jose, but all unproductive.

USN destroyers have already spent 6 days (7th - 12th) near Mili and are still well in supply; a new strategy is being formed - sending out DD squads to camp indefinitely by IJN bases =)

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