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Airfield attack handicap for Japs

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Airfield attack handicap for Japs Page: [1]
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Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 8:49:24 AM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline 		In planning an airfield attack it is of paramount importance to know the enemy air force composition based at the enemy airfield.
Now, as the Allies plan the move second, they have the exact composition, while the Japs can only guess it.
Is this true?...and if true, is it fair?
Post #: 1
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 9:18:19 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

In planning an airfield attack it is of paramount importance to know the enemy air force composition based at the enemy airfield.
Now, as the Allies plan the move second, they have the exact composition, while the Japs can only guess it.
Is this true?...and if true, is it fair?


You plan separately but the move is combined. You cannot know if the enemy is moving away from the base or moving into it. You cannot know if the planes are on CAP or at what altitude if they are. But you can do recon and learn things. Both in the reports and in the form of what you "see" when the recon occurs - e.g. what kind of cap for example.
It is all pretty iffy - and that is all pretty fair and right.

(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 2
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 12:57:15 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knaust

In planning an airfield attack it is of paramount importance to know the enemy air force composition based at the enemy airfield.
Now, as the Allies plan the move second, they have the exact composition, while the Japs can only guess it.
Is this true?...and if true, is it fair?



The way it appears to work is the recon rating for a base is assigned to the hex during the last turn’s execution. So if Japan rebases planes in or out of a base during his turns plotting the allies will see this if they have high enough recon at that particular base during their plotting phase.

Is it fair? No, but my opponent and I went until about August of 42 before we even noticed this Japanese disadvantage. Later in the game when the allies have a lot of recon planes it will be more pronounced, but given that Signet is almost useless in the game simply chalk it up to the fact the allies had broken the Japanese code for most of the war.

In the end I don't think it's critical. Irritating yes, but not a game breaker. It’s simply a function of the games routines, all recon for a hex is applied simply as a level of intelligence, actual unit and group sightings aren’t tracked, you just build up recon points till you start to see things that are currently in the hex in more detail.

As a test my opponent moved an air group into an empty base and sure enough I saw the group in my plot phase, so I think I’m right about the way it is working.

Jim


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(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 3
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 1:19:01 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline 		Jim,

You are correct in your interpretation except that you don't need to have flown any recon. For example, if I, as the Japanese player, move some air units into a previously unoccupied base, the allied player will see the airfield symbol show up. Depending upon its brightness (dim or dark), the allied player can also tell if this is a major move or not. If the allied player has heavy bombers in range, this can be real bad for the Japanese player if he is planning a surprise raid and his planes don't fly. Ask me how I know!

In my PBEM game as the Japanese player, I have twice lost large numbers of bombers staging to a forward base because of this. I now do a 2-stage transfer of aircraft when in range of his bombers. But only when there is a very juicy target to be hit. First comes in very strong CAP on turn 1. If he attempts to bomb, hopefully I will destroy/damage enough of his bombers that a second strike won't be attempted for a few days. For turn 2, I then replace some of the fighters with my Bettys so that they can do their naval attacks. I then move them out before he can blast them again.

The allied player does get this "intelligence" that is not available to the Japanese player. However, I too look at it as having had my "code" broken.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 4
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 2:47:55 PM   
saj42


Posts: 1125
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Somerset, England
Status: offline 		Andrew Brown has a set of 'Fog of War' icons on his site (naval, land and air). Basically they are all the same colour - no change in brightness due to numbers. It's only a partial solution as it does not disguise the appearance of the new icon. At least now your opponent won't know if you flew in 1 or 1000 bombers

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(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 5
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 6:48:10 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		It's a pro-Allied information slant. Strategically it is almost as valuable as the pro-Japanese information slant built into the fact that the Allied base flags are nationality coded.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to saj42)
Post #: 6
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 6:53:29 PM   
DFalcon


Posts: 318
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Allied base flags are nationality coded.



What useful information does this reveal?

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 7
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 7:19:33 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		It can give a read on Allied strategic priority in the area historically encompassed by ABDA, ANZAC, and SWPAC during the first five months of the war.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to DFalcon)
Post #: 8
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 7:56:44 PM   
DFalcon


Posts: 318
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

It can give a read on Allied strategic priority in the area historically encompassed by ABDA, ANZAC, and SWPAC during the first five months of the war.


How does it do this? Bases are assigned at the begining of the game. I am missing something. Perhaps you could be more specific.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 9
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 7:58:26 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
The only useful thing I've ever gotten from the nationality flags is knowledge of Allied movement of Chinese/SEAC units into/out of China.

The plane thing never bothered me. Just transfer the bombers in and set them to attack immediately.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 10
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/20/2006 8:03:10 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DFalcon


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

It can give a read on Allied strategic priority in the area historically encompassed by ABDA, ANZAC, and SWPAC during the first five months of the war.


How does it do this? Bases are assigned at the begining of the game. I am missing something. Perhaps you could be more specific.


Seems that he has not bought the game yet

(in reply to DFalcon)
Post #: 11
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/21/2006 12:33:40 AM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		I have the game for two years IIRC and I don't understand either this point about the Allied base... By the way I have never seen any utility in changing a base command.

As for the AC symbol, my problem is that it is displayed, and with the good color even if no one is in range, so you can see when a major operation is leaving PH for example because the number of ships in the port fell under 100... It helps both sides (by the way I'm not an Allied fanboy, I play IJN 90% of the time). In my opinion it will be better if the AC/ships symbol won't be shown at all during the replay and will be shown in a player turn only in one's bases and bases than he had intel/recon during the turn.
As for playing with the current situation, the key is to move first heavy CAP and have Zeroes fly 90% or 100% CAP at the arrival. Fatigue won't reduce much their efficiency and they will make any Allied raid a bloody affair (usually for the attacker). The big mistake is to move tons of fighters and having them grounded for rest. A fighter flying local defence (even at 90%) is not much more fatigues than one playing cards at the bar, so let them fly...

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 12
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/21/2006 12:40:39 AM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline 		the main problem here is not AC symbol, IMHO. I can live with that, imagining that is Allied intel.

But i really dislike air balance number shown at the base - and it should be removed from the game...

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Post #: 13
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/21/2006 12:58:05 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

The plane thing never bothered me. Just transfer the bombers in and set them to attack immediately.


The problem is that.. well let's say you want to set an ambush of some enemy high value surface units so you fly in your bombers and set them to naval attack. Only problem is that in a lot of cases your bombers won't fly until the afternoon, after the morning search phase. However. Mr. Allied player has spotted the arrival of your planes and KABOOM, 300 heavies take out the base in the morning phase. You've just lost a lot of airpower.

Is it fair? Well, yes and no. IRL, the allies often had warning of enemy aircraft movements through code breaking so you could say that the intel is gained from that. But even Rochefort (or whatever his name was) wasn't that good to do it 100% of the time.

One trick that I have used successfully on several occasions is this. If his bombers have to attack unescorted due to range or a lack of fighters then if becomes pretty easy to set-up an ambush for his bombers by staging lots of high quality fighters in. In my PBEM, I shot down nearly 40 bombers out of 350 and damaged 70 or so more for the loss of 25 fighters. Then my bombers staged in and unfortunately failed to locate their target! I had to wthdraw them before my opponent recovered.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 14
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/21/2006 5:12:04 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Depending upon its brightness (dim or dark), the allied player can also tell if this is a major move or not.


You are misinterpreting the dim or bright. It tells the supply status, and NOTHING else.

And there is a function posted on this board that lets you turn that off if you don't like it.

I think there IS intel in the area - so I have no problem with it.


(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 15
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/21/2006 5:14:47 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

But even Rochefort (or whatever his name was) wasn't that good to do it 100% of the time.


According to him he got NOTHING AT ALL for periods many weeks in a row. When all was going well, he got "one word in ten." This is not eactly the same thing as "reading" a "broken code." And the Japanese felt (wrongly as it turned out) that Japanese UNCODED is too hard for us to grasp. But they were not completely wrong: we still do not understand many things. Japanese writing is not easy to understand, even if you grew up in Japan and have a degree in linguistics!

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 16
RE: Airfield attack handicap for Japs - 2/21/2006 8:09:35 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

The problem is that.. well let's say you want to set an ambush of some enemy high value surface units so you fly in your bombers and set them to naval attack.


Sure, I can see how naval attack might be an issue. I'm trying to imagine a combination that would induce me to base my precious naval bombers in range of Allied heavies, but I won't argue it might be out there.

Anything other than heavies and I'm bringing a boatload of fighters along as greeters......

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 17
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